stop & go vs. re-raise

[portcityplayer 0]

late in a multi-table sng the blinds are 800-1600. 6 players left, 4 cash. 1st place is $500, $2nd $240, 3rd $120 4th $65. UTG+1 (12000 chips) Raises to 3600FoldHero (10000 chips) on the button finds a pair of 3sSB and BB are left to act.Reads: Player is loose enough to be raising here with any ace, with any two face cards, but it's very unlikely that he would make this raise with a suited connector. I also think he's good enough to fold if he missed the flop entirely. If he has a pair, I'm way behind, but late in the tournament, my stack is getting low and I realize I have to start gambling if I want to win. Finishing in 4th is not my goal.I've decided I'm going to play the hand, what's the best way to play it?Call the bet and push on any flop without any face cards or aces no matter what UTG does?Call the bet and push on any flop without one or more face cards or an ace no matter what UTG does?Call the raise and push on any flop that's checked to me?Re-raise all-in right now?Thoughts? I re-raised all in, villain showed down KJ and spiked a J on the river. A stop-and-go would've worked here as the villain would probably have folded since an ace hit the flop, he didn't have one and besides, I was ahead anyway.Thoughts?Thanks,PCP

[NarSARSsist 0]

late in a multi-table sng the blinds are 800-1600. 6 players left, 4 cash. 1st place is $500, $2nd $240, 3rd $120 4th $65. UTG+1 (12000 chips) Raises to 3600FoldHero (10000 chips) on the button finds a pair of 3sSB and BB are left to act.Reads: Player is loose enough to be raising here with any ace, with any two face cards, but it's very unlikely that he would make this raise with a suited connector. I also think he's good enough to fold if he missed the flop entirely. If he has a pair, I'm way behind, but late in the tournament, my stack is getting low and I realize I have to start gambling if I want to win. Finishing in 4th is not my goal.I've decided I'm going to play the hand, what's the best way to play it?Call the bet and push on any flop without any face cards or aces no matter what UTG does?Call the bet and push on any flop without one or more face cards or an ace no matter what UTG does?Call the raise and push on any flop that's checked to me?Re-raise all-in right now?Thoughts? I re-raised all in, villain showed down KJ and spiked a J on the river. A stop-and-go would've worked here as the villain would probably have folded since an ace hit the flop, he didn't have one and besides, I was ahead anyway.Thoughts?Thanks,PCP

With these blinds, UTG+1 has 7.5 bb left. With a raise like that, I don't think a reraise will push him off. If you're planning on going all in anyway, might as well wait on the flop, where at least your opponent just might fold his hand [relatively unlikely, but better than 0%, right?] with a check fold.

[copernicus 0]

I think you answered your own question when you said he could fold on the flop. Small pair vs overcards is the classic stop and go situation, as long as your stack is deep enough to get him to fold on the flop.

[Fluffdog87 2]

Lets recap here.You have 3's. :roll: :wink: :!:

[Bizzle 0]

My worry with the stop and go here is the fact that you are OOP for the stop-n-go. Ideally for the stop-n-go, you will be first to act after the flop. My worry here is that a flop like Q107 will fall, he will jam, and you will fold the best hand. I would say that if you feel you are ahead, a jam here could very well be justified.And fluff-hopefully someday you will understand that substance supercedes 43 smilies in every post.

[NarSARSsist 0]

My worry with the stop and go here is the fact that you are OOP for the stop-n-go.  Ideally for the stop-n-go, you will be first to act after the flop.  My worry here is that a flop like Q107 will fall, he will jam, and you will fold the best hand.  I would say that if you feel you are ahead, a jam here could very well be justified.And fluff-hopefully someday you will understand that substance supercedes 43 smilies in every post.

Well really, I think if he has planned from the beginning to do a stop and go, he's going to call regardless of the flop. Really with the stop and go the plan is to get it all in there, it's just a matter of when. If I had planned on doing that I wouldn't even bother looking at the board really, because I know that I planned on getting all the money before even seeing a flop, and this would have been the flop that my opponent called me on anyway.

[portcityplayer 0]

With my pair of 3s, I'm a 3:1 favorite if he only gets to see three cards. Even greater than that if he fails to improve and folds a pocket pair larger than mine or folds a hand that's not top pair, in this case if an aces comes out. You've decided to make a move here, I think the best way to get your money in, is via the stop and go.

My worry with the stop and go here is the fact that you are OOP for the stop-n-go. Ideally for the stop-n-go, you will be first to act after the flop. My worry here is that a flop like Q107 will fall, he will jam, and you will fold the best hand. I would say that if you feel you are ahead, a jam here could very well be justified.And fluff-hopefully someday you will understand that substance supercedes 43 smilies in every post.

Well really, I think if he has planned from the beginning to do a stop and go, he's going to call regardless of the flop. Really with the stop and go the plan is to get it all in there, it's just a matter of when. If I had planned on doing that I wouldn't even bother looking at the board really, because I know that I planned on getting all the money before even seeing a flop, and this would have been the flop that my opponent called me on anyway.

[copernicus 0]

My worry with the stop and go here is the fact that you are OOP for the stop-n-go. Ideally for the stop-n-go, you will be first to act after the flop. My worry here is that a flop like Q107 will fall, he will jam, and you will fold the best hand. I would say that if you feel you are ahead, a jam here could very well be justified.And fluff-hopefully someday you will understand that substance supercedes 43 smilies in every post.

Your're right, not enough sleep and I butchered my answer. You really would like to be first to act after the flop, although if he jams and you call you are back to the same point as if you had jammed preflop, when you had little FE anyway.The bigger problem for the stop and go here is the blinds playing behind you and the potential for multiple hands seeing the flop...we dont know what their stacks are like. If one of the blinds calls there is no longer any folding equity to the "go". If we call there is 9600 in the pot and the big blind only has 2k to call, which is going to be very hard for him to get away from. With 11,600 in the pot and 6400 behind, we dont have the power to move one, much less two players out.If we push there is 16k in the pot and UTG+1 has 6400 to call...ie we are only pushing out a bluff at this point (which is the reason I initially whiffed with my stop and go call!), and are a dog without even considering the possibility of the blinds waking up with hands.Fold and look for first in vigorish.

[Bizzle 0]

With my pair of 3s, I'm a 3:1 favorite if he only gets to see three cards. Even greater than that if he fails to improve and folds a pocket pair larger than mine or folds a hand that's not top pair, in this case if an aces comes out. You've decided to make a move here, I think the best way to get your money in, is via the stop and go.

I guess I should ask you then-Were you going to lay the 3s to any sort of flop? If not, then I am fine with the stop-n-go. I just don't like being without the lead and seeing a flop with 3 monster cards fall and have my opponent jam. I like the idea of making the play with the most fold equity-I just don't like the idea that this play has possibly even more fold equity for you.

[copernicus 0]

I guess I should ask you then-Were you going to lay the 3s to any sort of flop? If not, then I am fine with the stop-n-go. I just don't like being without the lead and seeing a flop with 3 monster cards fall and have my opponent jam.

Absolutely in a pure stop and go situation you are pushing any flop, including the monster cards. A monster flop (which to me includes an A) is scary to any non-A hand, and one goal of the stop and go is to pick up FE on any hand that fears it could be 2d best.Raymer stresses this in a post in the "wisdom " thread at 2+2 MTT forum.

[mk 11]

yes, it is important not to chicken out, even when high cards flop.to the OP: do not post results. post the hand up to the point where you have a question. it will garner better discussion.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I'm a firm believer in Harrington's theories on first-in-vigorish, and hence do not believe that this is a good spot to be putting in a raise with pre-flop, nor do I like calling with a small pocket pair. You have indicated you are going to play the hand though, so I think your best bet is to push pre-flop, as you will have some fold equity. Any flop will be scary for your small pocket pair unless you hit your two outer, so I don't think seeing a flop helps you here. 8)