7 replies to this topic

[DwayneWayne]

10-20 Live.8 handed. Game has been somewhat loose but not overly out of control.UTG open raises, 2 players call (MP, LP) and you look down and see 4c4h. You call. SB fold, BB calls.Flop.3c – 5c- 6cBB checks, UTG bets, MP calls, LP folds, you raise (too aggressive?), BB folds, UTG calls, MP calls.TurnQdUTG bets out, MP folds, you raise (too aggressive?).River9cUTG checksBet or No bet? Good value, I put him on an over pair, and with that much in the pot and me slowing down on the river makes me think he doesn’t have a club or he would have bet out. Results to follow.Thoughts on every street would be appreciated.Thanks

[KDawgCometh]

if you follow that pattern then you certainly need to bet the river, here's the rub: its not for value there, you are most likely beaten by a higher but since you've been rasing throughout you have fold equity here. I don't mind the raise on the flop, the turn, eh. But you must bet the river to take down this pot, you four of clubs ain't gpnna win it by itself here

[Awful]

The problem is that it's a zero-expectation bet there on the river. He won't show a lower flush or an overpair. You don't get called unless beaten; the bet adds nothing for you except concealing how you played, or you lose a bet that has no reason to go out there. You get a crying call from the 10+ clubs, and push the pot towards him. Check down, say "well, I have a club" and hope, there.The stop-and-go on the turn passivates me/confuses me, I likely slow down there, but I raise that flop like you. Your only value is folding out like a 7x7c, marginally better club hands, or low made flushes "ruined" by the 4th club coming. I'd only bet at this on the river to bluff, very read dependent. He probably puts you on overcards with a club; assuming a made flush traps and other hands are scared into passivity by the coordination of the flop. My guess: you bet, he calls, you get shown JxJc. He bet the turn for info, but took one off when you raised again, will pay off river with the Jack-flush beating your 4-high flush though he thinks you have AxQc, he still makes a pot-odds/uncertainty based crying call like he did on the turn.

[Awful]

KDawgCometh said:

if you follow that pattern then you certainly need to bet the river, here's the rub: its not for value there, you are most likely beaten by a higher but since you've been rasing throughout you have fold equity here. I don't mind the raise on the flop, the turn, eh. But you must bet the river to take down this pot, you four of clubs ain't gpnna win it by itself here

I agree that the bet's value is in folding out better clubs, but only in the range from 5-10... As an UTG raiser, I don't put them on one of those unless it's a pocket paired 8-9-T. I think you DO take it down on enough check-downs, and that your fold equity is NOT helped quite enough by the river due to the fact that the opponent is a UTG raiser. I expect him to have a crying call hand if he has a club at all, which brings the river bet more into the "zero expectation" category.EDIT: Then again, I've been playing micros too much lately... how big of a river laydown would this guy make vs. what would he see for 1 more bet? That's the key dimension, and I'd like the original poster's read on the opponent's river behavior as well as the hand read he threw in. That'd help resolve the differences me and KDawgCometh have on the right river action.

[Smasharoo]

Check behind on the river, you played it fine.He's not folding anything that beats you and he's not calling anything that doesn't.No value in betting. Your turn raise is the shot you take at this pot, firing again on the river in a pot this big is only going to fold hands you beat. Pot's too big.

[Smasharoo]

but since you've been rasing throughout you have fold equity hereNah, pot's way too big. It's an exceptionally rare 10/20 player who's going to fold anything that beats you here. Way more rare than you'd need to make this bet +EV.

[DwayneWayne]

My read of the player was that he wasn’t happy about the clubs, he got into a conversation with another player at the table about the flop, unless it was an act. When I raised the turn he made a very uncomfortable call. After the river card fell he gave a beaten smile and checked it to me. I had played with this player a couple of times at the club and in AC at a 20-40 so my read was that he knew what he was doing and what was going on. He tends to play aggressive so I had him on a range of hands as low as 55, 66.I checked down the river and turned over my hand. He told me he had JJ as he mucked his hand.

[Smasharoo]

He won't show a lower flush or an overpair.He'll raise a no club overpair a lot of the time