13 replies to this topic

[chester84]

i hate middle pairs like 7-7, 8-8. i never know the best way to play them, they are incredibly vunerable to overcards and you can get caught up in some expensive hands with them if you raise big preflop tryin to take the pot, gettin called and then the flop comes down j-10-k for example. if the player raises, wot do i do? i have to fold fearing he/she has hit a pair. i tend to just limp in tryin to hit a set, which hardly ever happens so it feels like a wasted hand.any views on this?

[NormanHaupt]

I'm a 33% successful showdown player.. so my advice may not hold a lot of water.. butPocket Pairs 22-66 I fold in EP, but call from MP to LP behind a limper. 7's or above I'll call from wherever. You want to put the least amount in the pot early, so you can arrange the max payoff when you do hit set. 2nd pair is almost never good.Say you have 99 from LP, limp in behind someone. Flop drops 428. You've got overpair, I usually raise and try and scare. Careful of reraises, its probably a pocket pair.If it'd flop 42K, however, if the check to you, I treat it as they got nothing and raise anyway. Whats the old saying? Raise it if it comes to you, or else fold.The other way I play, if I'm in Early poisiton and see the flop, and if its a low flop, I'll bet out first to see where I stand. If a lot of people cold call me, or reraise, I'll check/fold it there.

[UglyJimStudly]

chester84 said:

i tend to just limp in tryin to hit a set, which hardly ever happens so it feels like a wasted hand.

You're roughly 7.5-1 to hit a set on the flop, so you need a pretty loose game for this strategy to be anything but a money leak. Middle and small pairs are really "go big or go home" hands, IMHO - I either raise or fold, I don't find calling much use. Usually the raise/fold decision preflop is based on position (raise in late position, fold early) and whether there's a raise before me, postflop it's based on my read of the players who stuck around.

[chester84]

thanks for the advice guys. Ill bare it in mind 2nite online.

[wrto4556]

UglyJimStudly said:

chester84 said:

i tend to just limp in tryin to hit a set, which hardly ever happens so it feels like a wasted hand.

You're roughly 7.5-1 to hit a set on the flop, so you need a pretty loose game for this strategy to be anything but a money leak. Middle and small pairs are really "go big or go home" hands, IMHO - I either raise or fold, I don't find calling much use. Usually the raise/fold decision preflop is based on position (raise in late position, fold early) and whether there's a raise before me, postflop it's based on my read of the players who stuck around.

If five players limp and I have 55 on the button, im not raising or folding...im calling. you're getting 5-1 with big implied odds.

[Absolute]

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If five players limp and I have 55 on the button, im not raising or folding...im calling. you're getting 5-1 with big implied odds.

wrto is right here, playing middle pairs is mostly about odds. if i am at a table that has a lot of limping or a lot of pre-flop players on most hands, there's no way I am folding any pair. the implied odds are just too strong.another thing to consider with middle pairs is fold equity, which has been discussed here plenty. Say you have 8-8 and the flop comes 6-9-K rainbow. this is a good bluff opportunity because you are going to scare out hands like 7-8, A-9, K-rag, etc with any substantial bet.i like middle pairs, i like most pairs. i think getting in the habit of laying down pairs is bad poker, but learning when to make the right laydowns with them will help your game.also for example

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Pocket Pairs 22-66 I fold in EP, but call from MP to LP behind a limper. 7's or above I'll call from wherever. You want to put the least amount in the pot early, so you can arrange the max payoff when you do hit set. 2nd pair is almost never good.

don't become so systematic. the goal at poker is to win money, and you won't win much if you play like a computer, especially against good players. play the cards, don't let the cards play you.

[NormanHaupt]

lol I'm trying to get a solid system down, then deviate from it. I'm still learning what hands to play.I made my comment more as a working idea of how I had it, to be equally criticized- as wtgo and others would attest, I'm a newbie. I still get below 50% showdown wins- and I do slightly better than break even. I've been reading SSHE and I picked up a huge piece of advice- calling once every 3 hours is a leak. .. lol I'm not sure about that extreme, but I'm learning to call later.

[UglyJimStudly]

wrto4556 said:

If five players limp and I have 55 on the button, im not raising or folding...im calling. you're getting 5-1 with big implied odds.

Since pre-flop limpers in a loose game almost always call one raise IME, if you raise you're also getting 5-1 with implied odds, and maybe get a bit of fold equity (since a set of 5s is hardly a monster in a loose game, it helps if you can force out drawing hands), too. Not saying you're wrong, just that I don't see any real point to calling in the situation you describe.

[wrto4556]

UglyJimStudly said:

wrto4556 said:

If five players limp and I have 55 on the button, im not raising or folding...im calling. you're getting 5-1 with big implied odds.

Since pre-flop limpers in a loose game almost always call one raise IME, if you raise you're also getting 5-1 with implied odds, and maybe get a bit of fold equity (since a set of 5s is hardly a monster in a loose game, it helps if you can force out drawing hands), too. Not saying you're wrong, just that I don't see any real point to calling in the situation you describe.

You don't want fold equity. You want people to pay off your set.A set is a monster in any game.You want hands to draw against your set.Sets are a monster in any game.You don't want to pay a full BB to see a flop with a marginal hand.Small stakes fish don't know what fold equity is.Sets are a monster in any game. :-)

[JFarrell20]

I tried to make a matrix chart one day of how to play pocket pairs. It was insane. Pocket pairs are definitely hands down the hardest thing to play in holdem. I started laying out a "very basic" matrix. It was based on 6 factors (each of which had three categories). This was based on NL tourney strategy. The factors were:Table size (small, med, big)Pocket Pair size (22-77, 88-JJ, QQ-AA)Table position (early, mid, late)Table image (tight, average, loose)Your chipstack (relative to others at table (large, medium, small)Position in tourney (early, middle, late)As you can see, there are a ton of variations of how to play pocket pairs! You can always add more factors to this (example if the pot has been raised before it gets to you..), as well as delete some that aren't of huge importance (such as table image), etc. But this just goes to show how complex pocket pairs can be. I gave up making this matrix thing because I knew I'd never memorize it anyway.Kudos to anyone with the time and energy to create one, though.

[NormanHaupt]

I saw "chipstack" and thought it said "chapstick".. sigh, too many poker hours.

[Awful]

UglyJimStudly said:

wrto4556 said:

If five players limp and I have 55 on the button, im not raising or folding...im calling. you're getting 5-1 with big implied odds.

Since pre-flop limpers in a loose game almost always call one raise IME, if you raise you're also getting 5-1 with implied odds, and maybe get a bit of fold equity (since a set of 5s is hardly a monster in a loose game, it helps if you can force out drawing hands), too. Not saying you're wrong, just that I don't see any real point to calling in the situation you describe.

I don't think fold equity matters much in a 5-way pot, but I have a different question to pose: does a raise increase your implied odds? It's tough to give up in a huge pot, which is what a raise would create, and people would wrongly chase your set with pairs trying to hit a second pair, varieties of draws that may beat you, but aren't as good as advertised due to your boat redraws, etc. At the same time, you've taken the lead in the hand, which may kill action on subsequent streets despite pot size when you hit, and those drawing to beat you are assured proper odds. The impact on implied odds should be the key in a 5-way pot, which makes fold equity nil anyways, and getting 5-1 on a bet is poor odds on you having to hit a set to continue.

[UglyJimStudly]

Awful said:

I don't think fold equity matters much in a 5-way pot

My experience differs. With 5 bettors who never fold, somebody can correctly chase an inside straight draw to the river, and that means a lot of my potential sets don't benefit as much from implied odds since I'm paying anybody who flops four to a straight at the same time as I get my set. Get one or two people to fold, and maybe the draw doesn't look as good. Of course, open-ended straights and four flushes are getting good odds pretty much regardless, not much you can do about those but hope the players are timid.

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but I have a different question to pose: does a raise increase your implied odds?

Depends very much on the type of table. In the loose-passive example where you're on the button and there are five limpers, I don't think it affects your implied odds very much if at all. Those sorts of players are likely to check-(call or fold) almost any board that's even mildly favourable to your set.

[Alcatraz]

However if the table is passive enough, raising on the button with 55 may get you a free turn card, thus an extra chance to hit your set.I don't play much limit hold 'em anymore, and I'm not saying that I would raise w/ 55 from the button, but in the right situation in the right game, I can see some validity to it.middle pockets in limit I find incredibly easy to play. I need a set, an overpair to the board, or an open ended straight to continue after the flop most of the time.In NL, where fewer players typicaly see the flop and big bets can force out better hands, middle sets are much harder for me to play.Here's an example of a live tournament hand I played recently. I need to describe an earlier hand to set up the situation.From late position in an unraised pot with 3 limpers, I called with A9o. The board came down 9 high and when it was checked to me I made a medium size bet. An early position player raised all in. This was during the rebuy period and I didn't have much of a read on him... was he taking a shot at me knowing that he could rebuy if I called him down, did he have me beat, or was he on a draw. I called, he showed TT. The turn AND the river brought 9's giving me quad 9's and he rebought. Had he raised preflop I probably wouldn't have played the hand at all, and certainly would have laid it down to his checkraise.2 hands (and one rebuy for him) later I was holding 99 and the same player opened for a small raise, with me as the only caller. He then led out on a flop of J45. I called. The turn brought a T and he moved all in. I went into a huddle (I think I spent about 2 minutes considering this hand). I finaly called and he showed 77. Based on my reads on the player, I think he would have limped preflop with pocket tens or above, looking to trap. So I wasn't against a set or an overpair. With AJ or AT from early position he would have limped, not raised. I thought the hands he most likely held were a smaller pocket pair or AK/AQ. If he had a set of 4's or 5's (the hands I was now most afraid of) he would have suckered me along further rather than moving all in on the turn. I wasn't 100% positive of my reads, but I was sure enough to make the call (and knowing that I could rebuy if I was wrong helped). Usualy though I don't have that strong of a read on a player and would lay the 9's down in that situation.