15 replies to this topic

[theresa113]

I never post in this section because I feel like such a dork and I am a novice so I am pleading for some good advice without ridicule. OK?I was playing last night in my league (No Limit Texas Hold'em). It was the final night and our scores were for make-up, meaning, if you were finished in the game higher than a previous game, then last nights game would replace your low scoring game. I had a 9th and 7th place finish previously (yeah, i know, I suck). Each game consist of 10 players. I figure with those 2 scores, I should play. I made a good decision because i played 2 games last night, came in 1st on the first game and 5th on the second game. However, I want to discuss how I wound up in 5th place.OK... 5 of us left (duh) and I get pocket Aces. I have the second largest chip stack (I have no idea how much) and the guy across from me is the chip leader. I would say he has at least twice as many chips as I do. I am the last to bet preflop. The chip leader had just called the blind. I go all in, thinking I will steal the blinds and get out of there. Or, if someone did call, I am thinking my aces will do pretty well since we are down to 5 players. Anyway, the chip leader calls me. He has a pair of 9s. The flop comes, nothing for either one of us. Then on the turn, its a 9. Then on the river, it is a 9. He gets quads and I am out. Yeah, some may say bad beat but you know, I know there has got to be a better way to play pocket aces than to go all in. So, I am admitting that maybe I want to actually learn how to play the game better so I am putting myself at your mercy to tell me a better way. Thanks all in advance for your help!

[Smasharoo]

Yeah, some may say bad beat but you know, I know there has got to be a better way to play pocket aces than to go all in.Nope, getting called with AA for all the money preflop by a smaller pair is pretty much as good as it gets.

[KDawgCometh]

you should've made a raise about 3.5-4x the BB. The chip leader just limping at this stage is a little suspicious, but you need to make a decent sized raise here, that way if he comes over the top of you you can then push. There wasn't a need to push right there and your play to him might've looked like a steal, so remember this and do it again at some point with another big hand at a critical time in the tourny, if you get called you then showed a pattern of moving in with big hands, this will set up a few bluffing oportunities for you in the future. Normally though you need to raise and just put normal pressure on the blinds, you need to disguise your hands through consistent amounts of raises and raise amounts

[Absolute]

Obviously there needs to be more ingformation about this hand. But being on the big blind with Pocket Aces in NL Hold'em is the most beautiful thing that can happen to you in poker.If everyone has limped (again, I don't know how many players are in the hand, but I will assume just the other one), I would try to make a sneaky raise, something that looked like a steal.Say the blinds are 25-50, and big stack limps, and its folded to you in the BB, I would make it 150 to go, something like that, to force his chip stack in to action and maybe to make him think you are on a steal.The only problem is, you are first to act pre-flop, which gives you two options. But either way you win the pot probably.Check-raise or bet out at least 2x the pot. With 9s, he's probably going to laydown if there's at least one overcard on the board (which there likely was?) to any big bet or check-raise.But I dunno who you play with, I see all kinds of ridiculous things at the poker table.Better luck next time.

[theresa113]

Quote

If everyone has limped (again, I don't know how many players are in the hand, but I will assume just the other one), I would try to make a sneaky raise, something that looked like a steal.

There were 5 of us left on the table. Everyone called the big blind (it was ridiculously low, lots of action early in the game). Everyone then folded with my all in move except the guy who called me.I think it was the first (maybe the second) time that I played with the guy who called me. Everyone one else at the table I have played with serveral times, both in league and in home games. No one thinks I ever bluff (which I do from time to time) but I only bluff with people who know my style of play at the table because I know I won't get called. Let me explain, I was not upset at what happened. The guy who called me was getting cards all night long. He played well. I am sure he probably thought I had big slick, since a few players earlier were going all in with big slick. Here the thing though, I thought about betting 4x the big blind or something like that. However, every time I do and there is someone at the table that has not played against me before, they call. I am not saying it is because I am a woman, but I do notice, that players will call me when they will not call someone else who plays looser than I do. I wonder, if with 2 over cards on the flop, if I could have gone all in at that moment, and won the pot. He obviously would have called any preflop bet, the flop was queen, 10 and some low card. I usually do well with my pocket aces, winning about 80% of the hands with my all in bet, but I wonder if I am capitalizing the moment to its best potential.

[Big Larry]

You had bad luck...period. If you can get people to call your "all in" when you have aces, that is beautiful. I assume you were expecting someone to call or you would have bet a little less. When you are playing against the same people for a while, you have to disguise your hands a little bit. You wont want them to know that each time you come that strong that you have AA. You want to have callers...but not so many that you get sucked out. You just want high pocket pairs to come with you because they will only have 2 outs unless something freakish happens like them making a freak straight around their pair or a freak flush. You were an 82% favorite to win that hand preflop. You had bad luck. Larry

[Scott31]

Getting called all in with Aces is as good as it gets. With that said, you shouldn't have pushed all in. It's a funny game isn't it? If you KNEW he was going to call, which there isn't much way to be sure, you should push in. However, you're not going to get the most out of your premium hand by moving all in when you have a big stack. If I was the guy with the nines, I simply toss them and move on. He hit his nine on the turn, right? Well, if you just put in a healthy raise (5x or something) and the flop came with any overs, he's not going to call your huge bet and you don't lose that hand. Yes, it worked out that you had the best hand and got called by a weaker one, but that won't happen that often when you get several limpers. His call was pretty bad. BTW, I was playing with some family the other day and I noticed that new players tend to overbet the hell out of a pot when they have aces. They almost always win the pot, but they only win blinds. For example, Jon ( a friend of mine who is new to poker) raised a small amount PF, two callers. There's about 60 in the pot. The flop comes 6c 9c 8s....he goes all in for another 1200! Betting 1200 to win 60 doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The only hands that will call that are 7T or two pair. Basically, just the hands that had him killed. While obviously no hand beats AA preflop, 9 times out of ten, you're not going to get called and win a very small amount.

[gobears]

theresa113 said:

Quote

If everyone has limped (again, I don't know how many players are in the hand, but I will assume just the other one), I would try to make a sneaky raise, something that looked like a steal.

There were 5 of us left on the table. Everyone called the big blind (it was ridiculously low, lots of action early in the game). Everyone then folded with my all in move except the guy who called me.I think it was the first (maybe the second) time that I played with the guy who called me. Everyone one else at the table I have played with serveral times, both in league and in home games. No one thinks I ever bluff (which I do from time to time) but I only bluff with people who know my style of play at the table because I know I won't get called. Let me explain, I was not upset at what happened. The guy who called me was getting cards all night long. He played well. I am sure he probably thought I had big slick, since a few players earlier were going all in with big slick. Here the thing though, I thought about betting 4x the big blind or something like that. However, every time I do and there is someone at the table that has not played against me before, they call. I am not saying it is because I am a woman, but I do notice, that players will call me when they will not call someone else who plays looser than I do. I wonder, if with 2 over cards on the flop, if I could have gone all in at that moment, and won the pot. He obviously would have called any preflop bet, the flop was queen, 10 and some low card. I usually do well with my pocket aces, winning about 80% of the hands with my all in bet, but I wonder if I am capitalizing the moment to its best potential.

Your all-in play got the desired result until the turn. With every player limping in before your raise, I like it even better since you obviously don't want to have all these players seeing a cheap flop. That being said, you could try a lower raise next time, maybe 4x - 5x blind as mentioned previously. You do want action and an all-in raise has the tendency to kill action except from the best hands. The all-in is good if you get the call; but if it causes someone to fold who would have called a 5x raise, then the 5x raise is better of course.

[dms26]

If I knew I could get heads up everytime I held aces by going all in, I'd do it every time. Only one person against you and you have the chance to double up is perfect. You did nothing wrong.

[Devilkin]

I disagree with the people saying she did nothing wrong. Yes, AA is the strongest hand to start with, but it still is only two cards. I would have raised 4xBB, then seen the flop. That is the time to go all in - you are screaming high pair when you do this, and at that time, they are only seeing two more cards to get their lower paired treyed. Odds are much more in your favour at that point - no guarantees that it would have worked in your favour, but a much better chance that the person would fold.By going all in preflop, you are basically giving them the turn and river, without an opportunity to bail out. Dev

[wrto4556]

Next time, don't post the results. You played the hand perfectly...people are just saying that no because they know the guy sucked out on you.PS. You played them perfect

[Devilkin]

wrto4556 - Id like some supporting information why you think this. Explain your reasoning is much more helpful than an unsupported opinion.Dev

[dms26]

You have at least a ~75% chance against any hand preflop, how do you not like your chances? I'll give him 5 cards with that advantage anyday unless the payout structure is huge between 5th and 1st.

[Awful]

wrto4556 said:

Next time, don't post the results. You played the hand perfectly...people are just saying that no because they know the guy sucked out on you.PS. You played them perfect

WRTO's dead on. I think we should adopt a 2+2-like "hide or wait to post" the results, because those taint thinking.The critique of the reasoning should be based on whether the blinds are sufficient to warrant stealing 5 limps, liklihood of each different size bet being called by the limper, limping standards vs. calling standards, relative stack sizes, playing for survival vs. victory (structure sounds like a survival structire), what would pay off an overpair postflop (do they marry TPTK?)As it shook out, being called for your whole stack as a 4.5-1 favorite, that also cannot be denied, but we're missing info: Stack sizes, willingness of the big stack to gamble to knock people out, what people limp with, that whole spiel I dictated above. However, the BB's call with 99 for all your chips is not neccesarily an indicator that you played the hand well; the desired outcome achieved here could as easily be a result of the deck and the BB's sudden lapse of judgement. You don't know at decision time that anyone will call, especially if you're massively overbetting the pot, and the BB's decision is independent of your . An opponent making a bigger mistake doesn't make your initial play neccesarily correct. Personally, I'd try to take a line where I get heads-up with one person (if reraised, go all in PF) for a pot-sized or slightly bigger raise (here I think I make it 9xBB to go), see if they can hit a pair, and pay off a big flop bet from my overpair. If they flop 2 pair, or get themselves a set, I know that's a risk I take, but when I have bullets, I want to get a whole stack without getting too cutesy (79o isn't gonna beat me. KJs, maybe). You did succeed in that with the BB's call; however, let's look at that more objectively as well.Also, be sensitive to all the factors; while the information I asked for above isn't in your post, you seem to express that it's not running through your mind either. The key is to follow the flow of the table and the stacks, the positions, the previous play, etc. The AA you were squeezing is only 1 factor in a hand; even moreso in tournaments than in cash games, though both need sensitivity to outside factors. That way you'll both improve your technical play, and allow us to help you further by detailing those factors and those reads that will enable us to provide truly constructive thought and reasoning.Also, anyone who wants to limit their losses with aces should tell the poker gods to ship all those bullets over to me. I'll take them.

[theresa113]

Thanks guys for the support and thanks for the dissension. I appreiciate both points of view. Next time, I promise not to post the outcome. Like I said, I don't usually venture over here because I keep wanting to tell myself I play for fun only and that I don't take the game too seriously. Yet, I belong to a league, I play 1 or 2 homegames a week and I spend 2-4 nights a week (if not more) playing online. Maybe it is time to stop deluding myself and actually analyze my game play and work on improving it. I wasn't upset about losing the hand because I have learned that AA has an 80% chance on holding up preflop. I see some people slow play AA and when they show, I am shocked because I had absolutely no clue that is what they were holding based on their play. I am a bit more obvious (hence the all in with aces almost every time). Also, I was playing to remove a lower ranking, I had already surpassed my lower ranking, so to me it was already a winning situation. Most of the time, I do stupid things but I know I was stupid. I know there are such things as bad beats, but I also know that most bad beats are not bad beats, but just bad plays. Thanks again guys for all of your insights!

[Smasharoo]

Pushing in the BB is fine here with 5 limpers.It says "I have a weak hand and want to pick up all this dead money. " You'll get called a lot by hands you crushed, like you did, and often by EP players with strong hands (which you'll likely still crush like QQ or KK) looking to limp-reraise.A small raise here is silly. Picking up 5XBB without having to see a flop is a great result with any hand.