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horribly played hand leads to weird river decision.


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#1 screech

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Posted 27 December 2005 - 09:50 PM

Villian is 10/0/0 only over 40 hands.FCP, 10-handed.I get K :club: K :) UTG+1PRE-FLOP:1 fold, I raise, steve-o-21 folds, 2 folds, CO calls, Button 3-bets, blinds fold, I cap, CO folds, Button calls.FLOP (11.5sb)J :D Q :) 4 :) (2 players)I checks, Button bets, I call.TURN (6.5bb): 2 :D I check, Button checks.RIVER (6.5bb): 8 :D I bet, Button raises, I fold.I think my flop/turn plan was pretty wrong. Tell me why.I don't really know if my river fold is best, but it felt right at the time.

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Posted 27 December 2005 - 10:18 PM

I'm guessing no K:diamond:, or yes?

#3 fckthis

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Posted 27 December 2005 - 10:20 PM

You folded river? Im surprised. If button has a set, he value bets turn, not checks it. His raise smells more like AQ, or AJ, then set or flush.Edit, its wrong because you are doing no betting. You didn't bet flop? Its doubful here that he flopped a flush, so bet and find out what he's holding. Check/call, is a very weak play. I mightve c/r here and if 3 bet MAYBE lay it down, as he most likely has a set.Now you couldve made the turn interesting, if you come out betting here. Maybe your intention was c/r here, which isn't a bad one, but I still bet here for value after your check call. For all you know, he's bought his free card.I think your river bet/fold was pretty weak. You don't have alot of info on this guy, and I'd pay him off for 1 bet in order to see what and how he plays.

#4 Actuary

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Posted 27 December 2005 - 11:30 PM

screech said:

I think my flop/turn plan was pretty wrong. Tell me why.
uh, cause you didn't bet the probable best hand?Bet/raise flopis this a trick?

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Posted 27 December 2005 - 11:34 PM

Screech.... did you let someone else on your account?!? What the hell is going on here?!

#6 Abbaddabba

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Posted 27 December 2005 - 11:55 PM

It's not april 1st. What the hell is this supposed to be?I think ive got it.You were the villain in question, and the hero with kings is the "other" guy. That explains why you manually input the hole cards, and the atypically weak play. I take it that you had AK or a small-mid pair like 66/77 and you raised the river as a bluff, and you're questioning whether it makes sense. Am i right?

#7 Actuary

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 12:08 AM

Abbaddabba said:

It's not april 1st. What the hell is this supposed to be?I think ive got it.You were the villain in question, and the hero with kings is the "other" guy. That explains why you manually input the hole cards, and the atypically weak play. I take it that you had AK or a small-mid pair like 66/77 and you raised the river as a bluff, and you're questioning whether it makes sense. Am i right?
Bingo!very good

#8 screech

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 07:06 AM

Zach6668 said:

I'm guessing no K:diamond:, or yes?
That's right. Two black kings.

#9 screech

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 07:22 AM

Zach6668 said:

Screech.... did you let someone else on your account?!?  What the hell is going on here?!
:club: I know. I felt like something was very wrong after I played this hand. But it was me who played it. I didn't really think things through logically during the hand, I just went more on intuition. That flop sent off alarm bells in my head and I kind of just turtled up.Anyone care to put villian on a range of hands? I know I have a very small sample size of data, but I think it's safe enough to assume he is very tight and very passive. Looking back on the hand, I feel like my instincts were right, but I also feel like there's a better way to play this hand. Put villian on a range and give me a line. I need help.

#10 coppedit

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 07:44 AM

Is it possible he had A :club: J(any). This would give him the nut flush draw. and middle pair. nut flush draw is worth a bet and middle pair is worth a bet to see where he stand. he doesnt hit the :D on the turn and loves the fact that u checked, bc that shows that you dont have the flush either, since you havent taken the role of the agressor in betting. he thinks maybe u have a Q (weak kicker) and are scared of the flush. he takes a free card hoping for another diamond. no diamond, but thinks ur bet is weak so raises you.That is my best guess as to what happened on that hand. I can understand your hesitation. But i think even after the :D flop u have to show some aggression to see where you stand.


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#11 screech

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 10:45 AM

Quote

Is it possible he had A  J(any). This would give him the nut flush draw. and middle pair. nut flush draw is worth a bet and middle pair is worth a bet to see where he stand. he doesnt hit the  on the turn and loves the fact that u checked, bc that shows that you dont have the flush either, since you havent taken the role of the agressor in betting. he thinks maybe u have a Q (weak kicker) and are scared of the flush.
I don't think this guy is 3-betting pf with AdJx or AdQx.The range I put him on was AA-JJ, and AK. The only hands I'm ahead of on this flop are the AK hands that don't contain a diamond. Those hands have 7 outs to beat me.Against the AK hands that have a diamond, I'm a slight underdog. They have 15 outs to win.Against all his other hands, I'm an big dog.Still, the flop felt wrong. Maybe I should be betting for info? Should I bet/fold this flop? Maybe even check/fold is best given how passive this guy is?I don't know. Someone give me a line.

#12 coppedit

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 11:07 AM

[quote name='"screech"][quote]Still' date=' the flop felt wrong. Maybe I should be betting for info? Should I bet/fold this flop? Maybe even check/fold is best given how passive this guy is?I don't know. Someone give me a line.[/quote']Your right. AJ would be a stretch to 3 bet. Like Steve Dannenman said at the final table last year, "not calling a raise is only a small mistake." dont beat yourself up over it. i think a bet after the flop would have given you some info about his hand and made you live with your decision a little bit easier. but you had a bad feeling from the start and no point in going against your gut if nothing that had happened pointed in your favor.


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#13 Fat Tye

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 01:01 PM

I bet the flop. If raised, I re-raise with the Kd for sure, if no Kd, then I may raise or call depending on feel. Probably just call and then check call all the way to the end (assuming 4th diamond does not appear). I think I would rather spend my $ toward the showdown. I go passive on the turn b/c if I bet out on the turn and am raised I am forced to a decision I don't want. If I call his turn raise, I already could have had a showdown for the same price by c/c the turn and river. As this hand played out, I would bet until I was raised and then I would check/call the rest of the way. I think you needed to call the river raise, otherwise you never should have bet out. If nothing else you get info on how they guy plays by seeing his hand on the end. Unfortunately I don't have PT so this is how I have to find out how people play. I'll have to work on getting PT someday soon.

#14 Actuary

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 01:06 PM

why such a tight range?He won't 3-bet 99/TT, AQs, KQs, 88 ....40 hands.

#15 screech

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 01:21 PM

Actuary said:

why such a tight range?He won't 3-bet 99/TT, AQs, KQs, 88 ....40 hands.
Yeah, but he hasn't raised once over 40 hands. I think it's safe to assume his raising standards are tight. At highest, it may be like 5%. More likely, is that it's something like 3%. Do you really think someone that hasn't raised once in 40 hands is going to 3-bet those hands you just named? Maybe TT. But it's unlikely.I know that I don't have a lot of hands on this guy, but am I supposed to ignore PT altogther and assume he would play like me? I'd rather use the stats and realize the error present in a small sample size.

#16 Wingmaster05

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 12:55 AM

Can you name a hand that checks the turn but raises the riverive got 88, that's it.

#17 fckthis

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 03:55 AM

But how can you put him on a set? I mean he checks turn for god sakes. A set bets thats turn every time. I think the only thing you could up against is AA, no diamond (he wouldve bet turn as well if he did, or at least should bet turn).

#18 fckthis

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 03:58 AM

Wingmaster05 said:

Can you name a hand that checks the turn but raises the riverive got 88, that's it.
But how about his 3 bet preflop? I rule out JJ or QQ, because of the way he passively plays turn. Maybe 10s, who called BS on his river bet, putting him on AK. Like I said in the earlier post, AA is quite a possibility. AQ, and AJ as well. However, I don't think he has a diamond, as probably AQ or AJ mustve been suited.

#19 screech

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 08:02 AM

In the actual hand, I called the river even though everything told me to fold it. Villian had AA with the :club: .

#20 Abbaddabba

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 04:43 PM

Why would you feel bad about calling?He won nearly the bare minimum.Something similar happened to me earlier. I had AQ, raised, was 3bet by a guy who had position. flop came ragged all of one suit. My ace was of that suit. I was going to checkraise the flop, but he checked through. Turn was a blank, checked through again. River was a queen. I bet, he raised, i called. He had kings. He deceived you into paying him off at the cost of missing out tons of value on earlier streets. It definitely wasnt worth it in this situation, and i dont think there are any possible hands you could have had that would have made his line a good one.




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