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festivus checkup. bb with 56o. no, really! (2/4)


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#1 Sysvr4

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Posted 25 December 2005 - 02:30 PM

PokerRoom 2/4 Hold'em (0 handed) PreflopHero is BB with 5 :D 6 :club: UTG +1 raises, 6 folds, Button cold calls, SB calls, Hero callsAnyone not call there getting 7-1?Edit: UTG read, only 7 VPIP and 7 PFR after 40 hands. Make of that what you will.Jeff

#2 screech

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Posted 25 December 2005 - 02:32 PM

I fold here.I think the lowest offsuit connecting cards I call here with are 98.

#3 fckthis

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Posted 25 December 2005 - 04:14 PM

If you fold, you're being overly tight. You must assume your cards are first of all live, and at least they are connected. I call here, because you said the intial raiser is tight, which means you can trap him if you hit the board hard. I must mention though, calling too many raises from my BB is a leak in my game lol.

#4 iggymcfly

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Posted 25 December 2005 - 07:38 PM

I'd call here sometimes and fold sometimes depending on my mood. I doubt that either could be very wrong.Against an initial raiser who's that tight however, you pretty much know you're up against a big pair, so I think you have to fold in a limit game where your implied odds won't be able to make up for the equity that you're losing.

#5 iggymcfly

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Posted 25 December 2005 - 07:44 PM

Actually, I just checked your equity on the cardplayer odds calculator if you're up against something like KK, AQ, and T9s, and it's actually over 16%, so I guess you probably do want to call here. That's actually higher than I thought as with no flush possibility, I assumed you'd be around 10%.

#6 wrto4556

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Posted 25 December 2005 - 08:14 PM

screech said:

I fold here.I think the lowest offsuit connecting cards I call here with are 98.
i would even fold 98!internet poker... :shakes head in dismay:

#7 hotbacon

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Posted 25 December 2005 - 10:22 PM

iggymcfly said:

Actually, I just checked your equity on the cardplayer odds calculator if you're up against something like KK, AQ, and T9s, and it's actually over 16%, so I guess you probably do want to call here. That's actually higher than I thought as with no flush possibility, I assumed you'd be around 10%.
you can't say that just because he has over 7-1 equity means that he should call. whether to call or not depends on how much money he thinks the hand will make (or lose). in this case he will get outdrawn a lot and it will generally be very hard for him to bet his hand when he actually flops the best hand. also, he's oop, which further decreases his hands betability. this seems like an easy fold to me.

#8 Abbaddabba

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Posted 25 December 2005 - 10:49 PM

I dont like it.But i dont think that it's a huge deal either.I generally set the bar a bit higher, ideally 10/Joff and up. Realistically, i dip as low as 7/8 if the stars are perfectly alligned and my good-luck troll's hair is blowing counterclockwise.

#9 Actuary

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 05:15 AM

I fold.fast.

#10 Sysvr4

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 06:21 AM

I see lots of "fold"s and not many "because"s. Anyone care to give us a detailed account of why this is such an "easy" fold? I've decided I'm not just going to take Ed Miller's word for it anymore.Jeff/blasphemer

#11 Sysvr4

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 06:32 AM

hotbacon said:

in this case he will get outdrawn a lot and it will generally be very hard for him to bet his hand when he actually flops the best hand.
Why is that? I just click "Bet" and it bets :club: Honestly, I don't get what you're saying here.

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also, he's oop, which further decreases his hands betability. this seems like an easy fold to me.
My position relative to the raisor is one reason I called. If I flop a big hand, I can bet out and get it HU very easily here when he raises. I actually like my position in this hand.Jeff

#12 Actuary

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 07:12 AM

Sysvr4 said:

I see lots of "fold"s and not many "because"s. Anyone care to give us a detailed account of why this is such an "easy" fold? I've decided I'm not just going to take Ed Miller's word for it anymore.Jeff/blasphemer
Jeff.. you're gonig crazy.I'll agree with you that SSHE Blind play is tighter than necessary. I assume especially as you move up and the rake is not so bad making marginal plays more profitable.However, this is not so close, imo. The pfr is UTG..that means big hand. Would you call 1 Bet from the cutoff after 6 limpers with 56 off? I don't.thus this is worse.You will either flop enough to see the turn, and have to call 1 BB with the pot odds. Or fold the flop. You rarely win this hand.

#13 Actuary

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 07:16 AM

Sysvr4 said:

My position relative to the raisor is one reason I called. If I flop a big hand, I can bet out and get it HU very easily here when he raises. I actually like my position in this hand.Jeff
if you flop a big hand, why would you want to blow the field away?I would c/r.If you flop T52, I might lead out.If you flop 347, I'm c/r.

#14 Sysvr4

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 07:44 AM

Actuary said:

Jeff.. you're gonig crazy.
I won't argue with that.

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The pfr is UTG..that means big hand.
This is the part I'll argue. UTG has all the signs of a TAG to me, which means his raising hands UTG are:AK-AJ (and maybe ATs)KQ-KJ (and maybe KTs, but I won't count it)(maybe QJs, but I won't count it)AA-77 That's 48 pair combos and 168 (including ATs and excluding KTs and QJs) non-pair combos.I'm a 2:1 - 3:2 dog against any non-overpair. The field is laying me 7:1 closing the action. It's 3.5:1 against him having a pair. Even taking the 2:1 against suited overcards, this looks like a call.

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Would you call 1 Bet from the cutoff after 6 limpers with 56 off? I don't. ... thus this is worse.
I'm not closing the action. HUGE difference with this many in the pot.As a side note, I seem to remember Daniel posting in a LHE strategy hand similar to this one where he said call... I can't find it though. Anyone remember that or can dig it up?Jeff

#15 Sysvr4

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 07:48 AM

Actuary said:

if you flop a big hand, why would you want to blow the field away? I would c/r.
Agreed. Nut straight, I c/r for sure. Flop pair or two pair, I probably lead out.Jeff

#16 Actuary

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 07:59 AM

you'd have to be an exceptional post flop palyers.All that math wiil fail you when you have to put in 35+% of the money by the river, because you hit a 5 on the flop and need to see the river.I'm good post flop, for a new guyNot this good, though.One day I hope to never fold in the BB!

#17 screech

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 08:41 AM

Sysvr4 said:

I see lots of "fold"s and not many "because"s. Anyone care to give us a detailed account of why this is such an "easy" fold? I've decided I'm not just going to take Ed Miller's word for it anymore.Jeff/blasphemer
I fold because I read it somewhere. :-)I read a thread on 2+2 a while back that dealt with the kind of implied odds you need to call with different offsuit connectors. I can't remember exactly what it was, but something tells me you shouldn't call here, and it's not really that close. I wish I had more to give you than that. I'll try to dig up that thread.

#18 screech

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 08:42 AM

Sysvr4 said:

I see lots of "fold"s and not many "because"s. Anyone care to give us a detailed account of why this is such an "easy" fold? I've decided I'm not just going to take Ed Miller's word for it anymore.Jeff/blasphemer
I fold because I read it somewhere. :-)I read a thread on 2+2 a while back that dealt with the kind of implied odds you need to call with different offsuit connectors. I can't remember exactly what it was, but something tells me you shouldn't call here, and it's not really that close. I wish I had more to give you than that. I'll try to dig up that thread.

#19 hotbacon

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 09:04 AM

Sysvr4 said:

hotbacon said:

in this case he will get outdrawn a lot and it will generally be very hard for him to bet his hand when he actually flops the best hand.
Why is that? I just click "Bet" and it bets :club: Honestly, I don't get what you're saying here.

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also, he's oop, which further decreases his hands betability. this seems like an easy fold to me.
My position relative to the raisor is one reason I called. If I flop a big hand, I can bet out and get it HU very easily here when he raises. I actually like my position in this hand.Jeff
What I'm saying is the hand has almost no visibility. So many flops where you end up with the best hand you can't bet, eg 5 with overs etc. So you can't say that equity is better than 7-1 so he shoudl call (Like someone else said).

#20 Verdimme

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Posted 26 December 2005 - 09:22 AM

Im folding aswell. You simply have to beat too much players. Basically you have to flop a monster. One pair wont hold up, and even bottom 2 pair is vulnerable for redraws.
Life is the art of drawing without an eraser.




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