ajs in the sb facing mp raise

[strategy 4]

I've mostly played tournaments and given advice in the tournament forum, but I'm tired of avoiding cash game tables like the plague, so here I am on the first rung of the ladder.Over 10 hands, MP1 is 30% VP$IP, 10% preflop raisePokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is SB with A:diamond:, J:diamond:. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.Flop: (10 SB) 9:spade:, 2:spade:, A:heart: (5 players)Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.Turn: (8 BB) A:spade: (3 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.River: (8 BB) J:club: (3 players)Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.Final Pot: 10 BBIs 3-betting from the SB an option?Was I right to let MP1 make a continuation bet to force the rest of the field to face two bets?Should I have bet the turn?Thanks in advance.

[Emptyeye 0]

Well, the answer to question 2 depends on how I decide to play question 1. If I 3-bet this preflop--and I probably wouldn't (AQs is a 3-bet in my book)--I'll feel obligated to fire a continuation bet pretty much regardless of whether I hit anything. I'll be much more comfortable doing it here, since I hit TPGK, but I find it very suspicious when a preflop raiser proceeds to check the flop.If we just decide to call the raise like you did, then I like the idea of C/Ring, especially with you acting immediately after the preflop raiser (Who again, will likely make a continuation bet regardless of what he hit [Presuming he's reasonably skilled as his short-term stats seem to indicate]). Sadly, at 6.5:1, any flush draws will still be getting correct odds to chase--but making them face two cold without them actually knowing the percentages will hopefully get them to incorrectly fold said draw. In this case, as I said, I'm liking the c/r.Question 3: I bet the turn. This should come as no surprise to anyone who reads my posts (Where my "BET RAISE RERAISE CAAAAAAAAAAAAP" postflop philosophy shows in most of them), and I don't know if it's actually the correct play or not, but the chance neither opponent actually has the flush, combined with our boat redraws, leads me to think it is.

[pokerkid 0]

I usually 3-bet this pf, but the way you played it, the flop worked out perfectly. I love the c/r on the flop.Lead the turn. Obviously lead the river.I'm wondering what people do if we're raised on the turn...

[strategy 4]

I usually 3-bet this pf, but the way you played it, the flop worked out perfectly. I love the c/r on the flop.Lead the turn. Obviously lead the river.I'm wondering what people do if we're raised on the turn...

Why lead the turn? I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to know your reasoning.I *didn't* lead because I felt like I was drawing to a full house at that point. The PF aggressor just called me on the flop, which seems a little scary, and the flush draw got there. I felt like check/call and reassess on the river was the best way to save money here.

[screech 0]

I like the pf call. You have a strong multiway hand, and you have good relative position on the pf bettor. If you flop a strong draw, you can trap the field for bets, if you flop a vulnerable hand, you can blast away your opponents with c/r.You may have gotten outdrawn on the turn, but chances are you're still ahead. You must bet here to get value from one card flush draws, or to give the weaker 1 card draws the chance to fold.

[Emptyeye 0]

If I'm worried about anyone drawing to the flush, it's UTG + 1, who has shown no strength whatsoever to this point. He may be a compelling reason to check the turn, but I think we're ahead of a lot of things that the preflop raiser may be raising with. We have trip aces with a pretty good kicker. We're behind to an AQ or AK, but I think he 3-bets these on the flop. There's a wide variety of pocket pairs he may be raising with that, again, we're ahead of. The fact that the A:spade: hit the turn further eliminates the possibility of some slightly weaker AX suited that got there (say AJ or AT). Really, I think the only thing you'd have to worry about from the PF raiser is something like KQs or KJs. As I said, the possibility that we're ahead combined with the possibility or our boat redraw when we're behind adds up to leading the turn.

[pokerkid 0]

When the hand is down to three players, simply because there are three spades on the board does not mean someone has a spade flush.As mentioned by other posters, charge people with only one spade (or give them the chance to fold)Lead out because you're ahead here most of the time.Side note: I'm assuming u used to play NL tourneys... well if you did, and i could be wrong here, but I think you'll find that you lose alot more hands at showdown at limit than you do at NL (especially when comparing limit cash games to NL tourneys).Oh yeah, if someone raises the turn to do we call down or fold the river UI (or fold the turn)?

[Guest Zach6668]

Is it just me, or do you HAVE to lead this turn? You can't check everytime a flush draw completes just because someone called one of your bets. You are missing out on substantial value. I bet until someone shows me some aggression!Zach

[pokerkid 0]

Is it just me, or do you HAVE to lead this turn? You can't check everytime a flush draw completes just because someone called one of your bets. You are missing out on substantial value. I bet until someone shows me some aggression!Zach

What do you do after ur shown some agression?

[Guest Zach6668]

When the hand is down to three players, simply because there are three spades on the board does not mean someone has a spade flush.As mentioned by other posters, charge people with only one spade (or give them the chance to fold)Lead out because you're ahead here most of the time.Side note: I'm assuming u used to play NL tourneys... well if you did, and i could be wrong here, but I think you'll find that you lose alot more hands at showdown at limit than you do at NL (especially when comparing limit cash games to NL tourneys).Oh yeah, if someone raises the turn to do we call down or fold the river UI (or fold the turn)?

How can you fold? You have at least 10 outs to beat a flush, and 6 outs to split with a better ace, and 3 outs to beat a better ace. I still doubt I fold the river unimproved though, unless there is maybe a 4 flush on board.Zach

[pokerkid 0]

I would never fold the turn, but do we fold the river UI or call down?

[Guest Zach6668]

Is it just me, or do you HAVE to lead this turn? You can't check everytime a flush draw completes just because someone called one of your bets. You are missing out on substantial value. I bet until someone shows me some aggression!Zach

What do you do after ur shown some agression?

I most likely call down and assume that we are either behind to a flush, or a bigger ace, although it would be a terribly played bigger ace.

[Guest Zach6668]

I would never fold the turn, but do we fold the river UI or call down?

I see now... I misread your statement.I probably call the river, but I'm a calling station 8)

[screech 0]

I would never fold the turn, but do we fold the river UI or call down?

I see now... I misread your statement.I probably call the river, because I'm getting great odds with a strong hand and I don't trust anyone

FYP :-)

[Guest Zach6668]

I would never fold the turn, but do we fold the river UI or call down?

I see now... I misread your statement.I probably call the river, because I'm getting great odds with a strong hand and I don't trust anyone

FYP :-)

What are odds? :shock:

[Wingmaster05 0]

call river . Some players raise with the King of spades here. Some will raise A Xs. The reason why you continue betting even when the third spade comes you most likely have the best hand. Now, when someone check raises and then checks the turn, doesn't that seem suspicious? Most likely they have a check raise worthy hand but the flush scares them. Chances are they will follow their check with a call, and call the river too. So bluffing won't work. Our hand is three aces, jack kicker. Why aren't we betting?Also, IMO, a preflop aggressor with a flush draw in position will three bet you a) for a free turn, or b)to take control of the hand and hope you fold when they miss (probably unlikely, but who knows).

[strategy 4]

I'm convinced. I have found myself doing strange things like betting AK-high for value on the river, so I can completely understand going for value on the turn here. Thanks for the insight.

Side note: I'm assuming u used to play NL tourneys... well if you did, and i could be wrong here, but I think you'll find that you lose alot more hands at showdown at limit than you do at NL (especially when comparing limit cash games to NL tourneys).

Yeah. Limit requires a different mindset that I never really had before. I like it and I'm really looking forward to moving up after another couple thousand hands.

[Actuary 3]

Strategy,you helped me on a Sng question..so let me return favor...ah who am I kidding..I post on all threads here!Preflop is close, given the relative pos of pfr, I like the smooth call.I'll address on ascpect of NL vs Limit.In NL, if you arer wrong, and the Flush got there already, you may face a sticky situation from someone value-raisng the turn.Being wrong in Limit loses less than in NL. While in Limit you have ot make marginal value bets to extract max from your hands.something like that...

[strategy 4]

Strategy,you helped me on a Sng question..so let me return favor...ah who am I kidding..I post on all threads here!Preflop is close, given the relative pos of pfr, I like the smooth call.I'll address on ascpect of NL vs Limit.In NL, if you arer wrong, and the Flush got there already, you may face a sticky situation from someone value-raisng the turn.Being wrong in Limit loses less than in NL. While in Limit you have ot make marginal value bets to extract max from your hands.something like that...

Well, I *tried* to help you. Copernicus did his best to stop me. He likes to take the opposing position to mine and defend it to the death. I understand the concept. Matt Matros wrote an article in cardplayer about it:http://tinyurl.com/doqwuUnderstanding the concept and applying it correctly are two different things, unfortunately

[Actuary 3]

Copernicus is a fellow Actuary..he can't help himself!