protected river raise - i fold.

[screech 0]

SB is 22/2/1.5 after thousands of hands. No real reads, this is my first couple of hands at the table.Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is UTG with A:diamond:, Q:heart:. Hero raises.Flop: (7 SB) 9:diamond:, 4:spade:, 4:club: (3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.Turn: (5 BB) A:heart: (3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.River: (8 BB) K:diamond: (3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Hero folds, Button calls.Final Pot: 13 BBAny problems?

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Yes. I make this raise with AQ, AJ, and AT when the K comes off all the time, ESPECIALLY in a protected pot.Wang

[Actuary 3]

by "Protected" do you mean into two opponents so it's less likely a bluff?I call here.I'm not good enough to lay down Aces Up for 1 BB in a 12 BB pot.I think it's K9 often enough.this could be a 3/6 vs 1/2 thing.maybe fodling here is more correct

[screech 0]

Against a good player I would call here. I don't trust good players.This guy could easily have AK, given his pfr%. Also, I guy with these stats isn't nearly smart enough to raise this as a bluff, but he's probably smart enough to know I have an ace or a king. My first thought was a slowplayed 4. I found that 1.5 AF very trustworthy.If I wasn't the only player in this pot I would call. But with that extra player behind me, I let him do the work.

[Actuary 3]

Against a good player I would call here.  I don't trust good players.This guy could easily have AK, given his pfr%.  Also, I guy with these stats isn't nearly smart enough to raise this as a bluff, but he's probably smart enough to know I have an ace or a king.  My first thought was a slowplayed 4.  I found that 1.5 AF very trustworthy.If I wasn't the only player in this pot I would call.  But with that extra player behind me, I let him do the work.

whatever let's you sleep at night.

[screech 0]

I think it's K9 often enough.

Maybe. Some people are dumb enough to think this 2 pair beats aces and fours. Still, he raised 2 people on a paired board when I've shown strength the whole way.

[Actuary 3]

I think it's K9 often enough.

Maybe. Some people are dumb enough to think this 2 pair beats aces and fours. Still, he raised 2 people on a paired board when I've shown strength the whole way.

yeah, like I say, at 1/2 do they are!This was a Pro Fold.I'm not there yet.sarcasm aside learning to bet/fold will be tough for me. At 3/6 I'd think even medicore players bluff this 1/10 times. The point of the protected pot is strong. Given 99% of players are less tricky than Mr. Wang, I guess it's a good fold. I'm not that good yet and the donkeys I play aren't either.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I dunno, just seems like a strange line to take...Why didn't he wake up on the turn with AK or A9? I guess with an preflop raise % that low he might not have 3-bet with AKo, but it seems like when he hits his best card on the turn he might want to get a raise in, especially as out of position as he isIt could be a randomly slowplayed set (99?) or a 4, but I guess I'm just not used to players waiting for the river, because I so rarely do when I'm this far OOP.Wang

[Steppin Razor 0]

I don't think it's automatic that he thinks you have either an A or K. He could easily think you have a lower PP, a 9, or are bluffing.But, I don't like the raise on the end from such a meek player.Like Actuary, I don't think I'm good enough to be right often enough to make it worth it, so I make the call. Then I wonder why I didn't believe he had trip 4's when he told me so.

[Actuary 3]

here's a thought.SB's now realizes he's splitting with a better Ace, except AK, and tries this manuever with Ax.I mean he is 20% VPiP in 6 Max, so why's he calling with a 4 preflop?

[Shimmering Wang 1]

here's a thought.SB's now realizes he's splitting with a better Ace, except AK, and tries this manuever with Ax.I mean he is 20% VPiP in 6 Max, so why's he calling with a 4 preflop?

Like I said, I pull this move ALL the timeWang

[Actuary 3]

here's a thought.SB's now realizes he's splitting with a better Ace, except AK, and tries this manuever with Ax.I mean he is 20% VPiP in 6 Max, so why's he calling with a 4 preflop?

Like I said, I pull this move ALL the timeWang

lolI have short term memory.You did kinda beat me to that!the part that didn't sink in was the "we're splitting part"this Raise is gold with any A.

[zimmer4141 0]

I am definitely not laying this down. It's too likely he is trying to push out another Ax with his own Ax. Bet/call the river, rest looks good.

[iggymcfly 0]

This is a ridiculously bad fold. Yes, he might have a big hand over 50% of the time, but not anywhere near enough to make this a fold. You do realize that if you never win this pot outright, and split it one time in 6, that you still have odds to call right?Honestly, I think A-x might be a more likely hand than A-K or a 4. Unless he's slow-playing a boat, I can't imagine why he wouldn't raise a big hand on the turn here. He probably thought there was a good chance you had a PP, and then when the river K came, he knew he didn't have to be worried about being outkicked if you had an ace.Terrible fold on the river.

[screech 0]

Button had AQ.SB had AK.Very weird play by both of them.Anyway, I'm still not sure calling is the right play. It might be, given the pot size. But to say this is a terrible fold against this type of opponent is just ridiculous. Sure, the pot is 12BB, but I'm only playing for half the pot if he's pulling a Ax play on me.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

Button had AQ.SB had AK.Very weird play by both of them.Anyway, I'm still not sure calling is the right play. It might be, given the pot size. But to say this is a terrible fold against this type of opponent is just ridiculous. Sure, the pot is 12BB, but I'm only playing for half the pot if he's pulling a Ax play on me.

Only a third of the pot, most likely, if button has an A (as he did).I like the fold; I think this opponent will have AK or better more than 5/6 times here. (Of course, if you felt he would be likely to make a move in this spot with any Ax, then it's an easy call, as others have said).

[iggymcfly 0]

Given that there's an ace in your hand and an ace on the board, I think the chances of both your opponents having aces are very small. Yes, I know it turned out that way this time, but to pretend that a three-way split is more likely than a two-way split is just silly.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Protected pots are the new wa/wb.I'd call. This SEEMS like it would often be a value raise from the sb with any ace after having his kicker problems solved.With a caller behind him, he's gotta think that he's usually ahead of one player (half bet of value if it's a chop with the other). The SB knows that he's basically never behind button, and rarely behind you.But then, if he's rockish, he probably doesnt consider making such thin value bets.To me though, even still - there's too much in the pot to fold for one bet, especially when you're basically SURE that you're not beat by the overcaller.

[screech 0]

To me though, even still - there's too much in the pot to fold for one bet, especially when you're basically SURE that you're not beat by the overcaller.

At best I win half the pot. The pot is really not that big.At worst the raiser (or even the caller) may have A9/AK/4x.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

This SEEMS like it would often be a value raise from the sb with any ace after having his kicker problems solved.With a caller behind him, he's gotta think that he's usually ahead of one player (half bet of value if it's a chop with the other). The SB knows that he's basically never behind button, and rarely behind you.

There's very little value in such a raise for SB though, unless his hand is actually best, or he manages to make it the best hand by getting the (or both) equal hand(s) to fold, since he's likely to be splitting with at least one opponent as is. Otherwise, he makes at best 2BB by getting screech to fold and splitting with button. And, screech has been leading the whole way; for all SB knows, screech could easily have AK here, or even 99 or KK.Of course, our play shouldn't be based on what SB should do, it should be based on what he will do, and he's unlikely to bet a worse A here, I think, given the read. But I'm just saying that I'm not sure raising with a worse A would necessarily be the best play for SB to make anyway....

[Abbaddabba 0]

I dont know if it would be terrible.But at any rate, people arent reliably going to make plays that we think are good.The point is that it's not completely absurd to think that he may make this move with an ace that chops.The fact that this is at a 6max table and played out between the blinds means that the average level of hand strenght is going to be lower,.. you dont have any reason to believe that the SB has AK. He played it like a clown, if he does.

At best I win half the pot. The pot is really not that big. At worst the raiser (or even the caller) may have A9/AK/4x.

You're being paid 7:1 on the split.You're being paid 4.5:1 on the 3way chop.Pick an arbitrary middle ground at 6:1. Do you think that the SB has AK or better more than 86% of the time? (because button basically never does)Bleh, im not sure if that's exactly how it will work out. But it's something close to that.If not, how often do you think he has AK or better? How big would the pot have to be to justify a call?

[screech 0]

The point is that it's not completely absurd to think that he may make this move with an ace that chops.

I agree. I just think it's highly unlikely that this type of player makes this play.

The fact that this is at a 6max table and played out between the blinds means that the average level of hand strenght is going to be lower,.. you dont have any reason to believe that the SB has AK. He played it like a clown, if he does.

It wasn't played out from the blinds. I raised UTG and button called. SB has no reason to believe I am going to fold here. He expects me to call.IMO AK/A9 is more likley than him making a play with Ax. At the time I thought 4x was his most likely holding, followed by AK/A9, followed by a bluff or a play with Ax.

If not, how often do you think he has AK or better? How big would the pot have to be to justify a call?

A9 would beat me too.Like I said, I think the play is close. Up his pfr% to 10%, and his AF to 2.0, and I would probably call here (I still htink it's very close though). Against this type of player, I think the pot has to be close to 20BB before I can call. I could be results oriented though.

[HoosierAlum 0]

The point is that it's not completely absurd to think that he may make this move with an ace that chops.

I agree. I just think it's highly unlikely that this type of player makes this play.

The fact that this is at a 6max table and played out between the blinds means that the average level of hand strenght is going to be lower,.. you dont have any reason to believe that the SB has AK. He played it like a clown, if he does.

It wasn't played out from the blinds. I raised UTG and button called. SB has no reason to believe I am going to fold here. He expects me to call.IMO AK/A9 is more likley than him making a play with Ax. At the time I thought 4x was his most likely holding, followed by AK/A9, followed by a bluff or a play with Ax.

If not, how often do you think he has AK or better? How big would the pot have to be to justify a call?

. Against this type of player, I think the pot has to be close to 20BB before I can call. I could be results oriented though.

Nice laydown. Im folding here only because of his stats. Against most other people its insta-call.

[mrdannyg 274]

here's a thought.SB's now realizes he's splitting with a better Ace, except AK, and tries this manuever with Ax.I mean he is 20% VPiP in 6 Max, so why's he calling with a 4 preflop?

Like I said, I pull this move ALL the timeWang

only read responses to here, but if I am the SB, I pick up AJs or something, and post this hand in strat by playing it the same way.I think this is a very clever raise by SB because you have to call, since you are now splitting with almost any other ace.i really think this is a poor fold, since most aces split. even if he probably has something ahead of you here (though there aren't many hands except AK here that are logical), you are easily ahead here 1/12 times or whatever bets are in the pot.in fact, if you had the other player trapped between you, i think you reraise here, since you are probably splitting the other player's money (omaha 8/b style)daniel

[screech 0]

I think this is a very clever raise by SB because you have to call, since you are now splitting with almost any other ace.

You're right. It is a clever raise if SB is raising with the intention of me folding another ace that would split with him because I realize it's a protected pot raise that a donkey like him wouldn't understand how to do.Not all players are as clever as you or wang. If I was playing against good thinking players like you, I would call this in a heartbeat. It's true that a good thinking player could make this move, and I think it's a very bold move for someone to make, but a guy with these stats just doesn't think on this level.