17 replies to this topic

[simo_8ball]

Flatmate (007Mart) playing in a Stars tourney, just after rebuys have ended this hand comes up. We have differing views on this and could do with some other opinions to help resolve it. I think its a bit of a weak play, but I am generally much more aggressive than him. The opponent hadnt shown too much action previously, so there was no real read on him.PokerStars Game #3352231832: Tournament #16586649, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2005/12/16 - 20:11:02 (ET)Table '16586649 132' Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: 007Mart (34462 in chips) Seat 2: zdad (9160 in chips) Seat 3: polly1 (9525 in chips) Seat 4: Lykos46 (27691 in chips) Seat 5: PoopiePickle (10275 in chips) Seat 6: Troels1 (7274 in chips) Seat 7: aboghadab (5708 in chips) Seat 8: B Mike W (11925 in chips) Seat 9: bulldog913 (31030 in chips) 007Mart: posts the ante 25zdad: posts the ante 25polly1: posts the ante 25Lykos46: posts the ante 25PoopiePickle: posts the ante 25Troels1: posts the ante 25aboghadab: posts the ante 25B Mike W: posts the ante 25bulldog913: posts the ante 25PoopiePickle: posts small blind 100Troels1: posts big blind 200*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to 007Mart [Qc Qd]aboghadab: calls 200B Mike W: folds bulldog913: folds 007Mart: raises 800 to 1000zdad: folds polly1: folds Lykos46: calls 1000PoopiePickle: folds Troels1: folds aboghadab: calls 800*** FLOP *** [3s 7s 4s]aboghadab: checks 007Mart: bets 2000Lykos46: raises 2000 to 4000aboghadab: folds 007Mart said, "QQ no spade"007Mart: folds Lykos46 collected 7525 from potLykos46: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY ***Total pot 7525 | Rake 0 Board [3s 7s 4s]Seat 1: 007Mart folded on the FlopSeat 2: zdad folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: polly1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: Lykos46 (button) collected (7525)Seat 5: PoopiePickle (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 6: Troels1 (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 7: aboghadab folded on the FlopSeat 8: B Mike W folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: bulldog913 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Lykos46 said, "g laydown"B Mike W said, "easy"What does everyone think? what are opinions before and after Lykos46 says 'g laydown'? What range of hands can you put him on?

[offmandh]

Im not so sure that this is a good laydown to be honest with you. You are out of position, yes, but do you really think he would raise here wit han already made flush? Wouldn't he smooth call trying to trap you? If he is a crafty player, he would raise here with A K on a semi bluff, although i must admit the doubling of the bet is fishy. First thing i thought when he doubled was he made a low flush with like 8 -9 and he was protecting it, but i don't see him calling 1000 preflop with that. depends on the player.I'm not sure you were beat but i don't hate the laydown out of position. It could go either way for me. Woah. It just occured to me that he had a set. that makes a lot of sense. what does everyone else thnk?

[Merby]

A set is possible, but I still think it is faaaar more probable that he had a big spade and was drawing. He only raised the minimum here -- while this is often a sign of a big hand, in this situation and the way this hand played out, I think it is your opponent trying to buy a free card. He has position, and often a small raise will lead to the out-of-position opponent checking the turn, hence giving him "two cards for the price of one".There is no way I fold here without supporting evidence, too often, you are giving up the winning hand.Cheers,Merby

[offmandh]

Merby said:

A set is possible, but I still think it is faaaar more probable that he had a big spade and was drawing.  He only raised the minimum here -- while this is often a sign of a big hand, in this situation and the way this hand played out, I think it is your opponent trying to buy a free card.  He has position, and often a small raise will lead to the out-of-position opponent checking the turn, hence giving him "two cards for the price of one".There is no way I fold here without supporting evidence, too often, you are giving up the winning hand.Cheers,Merby

The reason I don't mind a fold is that by just calling the raise, you are completely not in control of the hand. Now if your talking about re-raising and/or pushing, I think thats a pretty good play, but if you smooth call, you are giving up control of the hand to the agressor. What are you going to do on the turn? Check scared of the flush? Push? You are most certainly going to check if a hits. I never like to be in this position in the hand. i like to be the one making people make tough decisions. i dont like to be the one making the tough decisions. this is why i think folding is a terrible play. (with that said, i'm not sure it's the right play. in fact im pretty sure pushing all in is my place of choice)

[DrawingDeadInDM]

offmandh said:

Im not so sure that this is a good laydown to be honest with you.  You are out of position, yes, but do you really think he would raise here wit han already made flush?  Wouldn't he smooth call trying to trap you?  If he is a crafty player, he would raise here with A K  on a semi bluff, although i must admit the doubling of the bet is fishy.  First thing i thought when he doubled was he made a low flush with like 8 -9  and he was protecting it, but i don't see him calling 1000 preflop with that.  depends on the player.I'm not sure you were beat but i don't hate the laydown out of position.  It could go either way for me.  Woah.  It just occured to me that he had a set.  that makes a lot of sense.  what does everyone else thnk?

Ding..I think that was the cause of your min-raise. He knew he had a big hand and the min-raise was to find out if the flush was working. Either way, I don't feel real bad tossing QQ here.

[pokerplayer24]

I dont feel bad about tossing away QQ here but at the same time no way I tell them i'm folding QQ unless you want to get played back at the entire time you're at that table.

[macphec]

I dont mind a fold here. Those min raises often do mean a monster but considering the stack sizes I might repop him and then see what he does. If I dont win the hand there I'm done with it

[Dynon07]

Good fold, its not even worth it to get mixed up with another high stack. What happens when you call this bet and the turn is a blank and he fires like 9K chips, what do you do then??? Your not really drawing to anything, and by calling all your doing is hoping he slows down a little bit. It's almost certain you are beat here, and even if your not, the following cards could make your next decision very very difficult. Pick a better spot to push, just fold in this situation. It's not even worth it.

[srblan]

I think I might check this flop to see what he does, depending on my read of the guy behind. Since you are out of position, and he called preflop, you really have no clue where you stand, and you really don't gain any information by getting minraised. It might be too passive, but it might also give the illusion that you have a big hand in case you decide to play back at him, or it might get you a free card. As far as your fold, it's a fine play. You are not overcommitted to the hand, and you've got no reason to cripple yourself at this point. In a cash game, I might not let the hand go that easily, but in a tournament, it's not a bad play.

[simo_8ball]

Convert your hand you N00b.

[copernicus]

A set is possible, but I still think it is faaaar more probable that he had a big spade and was drawing. He only raised the minimum here -- while this is often a sign of a big hand, in this He has position, and often a small raise will lead to the out-of-position opponent checking the turn, hence giving him "two cards for the price of one".

I dont see the logic in this. just calling can freeze the turn bet from a medium strength hand that is controlling pot size, and the min raise is not going to stop someone who is intent on charging for a draw. Spending money on a raise to "buy" a free card in position in NLHE makes no sense to me.

[mk]

looooool. nice bump.

fwiw i c/c flop

[Mercury69]

I think it's a good fold except where you tell him what you had. Once you get people thinking you can make big laydowns, everyone's going to try and run position plays on you.

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

The PF raise is horrible. 5x? He is scared, but anyways he is probably against a hand like KQ, KJ, AJ. He is flipping and he needs to decided if he wants to risk his stats. He chose not too.

[simo_8ball]

The PF raise is horrible. 5x? He is scared, but anyways he is probably against a hand like KQ, KJ, AJ. He is flipping and he needs to decided if he wants to risk his stats. He chose not too.

You realise that HH is from 2005, right? You could raise 10xbb and still get called by a 30bb stack looking to hit a set.

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

You realise that HH is from 2005, right? You could raise 10xbb and still get called by a 30bb stack looking to hit a set.

wow, haha sorry.

[Merby]

Convert your hand you N00b.

I come to the tournament strat page... to see a thread that I responded to on the first page. Funny... I don't remember visiting the tournament strat page for a couple of weeks.

Nice bump.

I now look back at the original hand in this topic and think: hmm.. .this is an unconverted HH, why should I bother responding to it?

[dereeekho]

fold is right, natalie.

lost only 3k chips, still have a gazillion BBs. dump hand here and avoid risking losing many many more chips in a tricky spot.