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i only do play alongs with suited hands - aqs.


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#1 screech

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 12:57 PM

This was a funny hand. I think I could have played every street diffferently. Anyway, here it is.Table is playing relative tight. UTG+1 is average. UTG+2 is a little too loose pf, but plays kinda decent postflop.I've been playing pretty LAGgy (for me).My stats over about 100 hands at this table are 23/14/3.FCP 3/6 (10 handed).Preflop: I'm in Hijack with A :club: Q :D. 1 fold, I...

#2 checkymcfold

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 01:02 PM

i usually call here if the raise is ep, or 3bet if the raise is mp.but i, too, am curious about others' opinions.

#3 Sysvr4

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 01:09 PM

Call or raise, but I lean towards calling here. You don't mind having others follow you in the pot behind you, but you're not hoping for a 3 way capped pot here.Jeff

#4 TheIceman05

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 01:21 PM

I 3-bet here. We have the best hand almost all the time, and it would be real real nice to have the button after the flop.You don't really mind if anyone else comes along for 2 bets with this hand, but you'd much rather have position against 2 players that figure to have above average hands. If the table's playing tight, just calling isn't really going to encourage any action you want. Besides, we don't really want to make the hand super-tricky to play by letting the BB call getting the incredible odds he's getting.Add to this the fact that UTG+2 rates to have a hand a little worse than your average 2-cold hand, this figures to me to be a clear raise.But no one agrees, so I could be wrong.Post the next street, because nobody else cares :)Ice

#5 Abbaddabba

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 01:24 PM

It becomes a matter of weighing the benefits of preflop value with the post flop value of taking control of the hand.I think that from a preflop value perspective, cold calling is better. Against the raiser and cold caller, you maybe have value on average, but you can easily be dominated and will get 4bet when you are. You probably _do_ want worse/dominated hands calling out of the blinds. I also think that taking control of the hand has very little value later on when it's already going to be at least 3 ways. You typically won't get folds from midpairs in large pots here. Consequently, i prefer a cold call here. But then, i dont think that there's a big difference. It is highly dependent on the two villains WTSD percentage. If you anticipate folds from small to mid pocket pairs whenever any overcards hit on account of respect for your 3bet, then 3betting may be better on account of the fact that the benefit of taking control of the hand far exceeds the disadvanages that a 3bet will bring you in terms of preflop value on average. If, when they have mid pairs, they will show them down almost always (as is generally the case in large pots like this), you may be better off cold calling.

#6 Egarim

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 01:36 PM

I think both plays work. Also, it depends on if u feel others will call behind you if you just call. I would prefer 3betting the majority of the time here because you have position and you want to gain some more info on the strength of utg+1's hand. However, if you feel he wouldn't raise with anything but 10s/aq and up from that position then a cold call maybe be the best option. In any case, taking a hold of the hand in position and getting more info on the strength of your opponents hand are the main benefits to 3betting.

#7 screech

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 02:58 PM

I raised.I considered cold-calling, but I decided against it for a few reasons. 1) If I call it's likely I won't pick up any extra cold callers to negate my disadvantage if UTG has me dominated. 2) I'm really put in a tough spot I flop overs and UTG bets. I have to now guess as to whether he has overs, or a pp.3) If I 3-bet I will usually take control of the hand. I also open the action back up to UTG and his actions will give me a better indication of his strenght.4) Value. If UTG doesn't have AA-QQ/AK, I'm in great shape. A raise let's me exploit UTG+1's mistake of cold-calling.There are some situations where I'd call with this hand (loose passive game in EP with a tight EP raiser), but I think there's more value in raising here.On to the hand.FCP 3/6 (10 handed).Preflop: I'm in Hijack with A :D Q :D. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.Button is a solid player. What do you think his range is?Flop:(4 players) 4 :club: 6 :D 3 :) (13.5sb)UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, I...What now?

#8 Egarim

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 03:45 PM

bet

#9 screech

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 03:52 PM

Egarim said:

bet
what do you put button on?

#10 TheIceman05

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 03:59 PM

I don't even know if I HAVE a "calling 3-cold" range.Off the top of my head, probably AK, AQs, TT, JJ, and QQ,the last one depending on the other players. I probably open-cap with QQ, unless I'm more interestedi n seeing if a player already in the pot wants to cap against the field.I dunno, I don't even think I call 3 cold with TT. I would hate open capping with AKo, but I'd do it on the button with AKs.I want to see a turn, for sure, and I'd love to see it cheap, but I don't think that is our primary concern. I want UTG and UTG+1 out of the pot as often as possible. So here's my plan. I'm betting, and hoping the button raises with a hand like JJ, perhaps knocking out UTG and UTG +1. What's your ideal card here if all 4 players see a turn for a single bet?Ice

#11 screech

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 04:22 PM

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Off the top of my head, probably AK, AQs, TT, JJ, and QQ,the last one depending on the other players.
My thoughts exactly. QQ is an outside possibility.I bet the flop for the reasons you listed. I hoped he had JJ/TT and would raise. If he had AQ/AK, that's ok too. Maybe I can get him to fold later.

#12 screech

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 04:33 PM

FCP 3/6 (10 handed).Preflop: I'm in Hijack with A :) Q :club:. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.Flop:(4 players) 4 :D 6 :D 3 :D (13.5sb)UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, I bet, UTG+2 calls, I call.Turn:(3 players) Q :) (9.75BB)UTG+2 checks, I...What's my play?

#13 Sysvr4

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 04:47 PM

screech said:

1) If I call it's likely I won't pick up any extra cold callers to negate my disadvantage if UTG has me dominated.
It's unlikely, sure, but it's much less likely if you 3-bet :D

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2) I'm really put in a tough spot I flop overs and UTG bets. I have to now guess as to whether he has overs, or a pp.
You're thinking similar to me, but I tend to wait until the flop to find out if they have overs or a pair. I don't think it matters much which approach you take.

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3) If I 3-bet I will usually take control of the hand. I also open the action back up to UTG and his actions will give me a better indication of his strenght.
It will, that's true. Again, I tend to do this after the flop is out. I think I get the same information and I have more of an indication of my own relative strength.

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4) Value. If UTG doesn't have AA-QQ/AK, I'm in great shape. A raise let's me exploit UTG+1's mistake of cold-calling.
True, good point.

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Button is a solid player. What do you think his range is?
I think the strongest possibility is AK, by a wide margin. JJ/TT/99 are also strong contenders, QQ only if he's typically passive.

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Flop:(4 players) 4 :club: 6 :D 3 :D (13.5sb)UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, I...What now?
On the flop I think you have zero fold equity, so that leads me towards NOT betting. BUT, I think you should bet because if button has JJ-99 he'll raise and get it HU for you. If he just calls, you know to be VERY careful if you turn an A. I think you get a lot of information for on SB here and possibly get the pot HU. I say bet.Jeff

#14 Sysvr4

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 04:56 PM

screech said:

Turn:(3 players) Q :club: (9.75BB)UTG+2 checks, I...What's my play?
By far the toughest decision yet. I can make arguments for all of the following: check/call, bet/call, and bet/fold, check/raiseI lean towards bet/call if he's at all tricky (ie, would raise the flop with AK). A raise from him has the benefit of putting 2-cold to UTG+2. Yeah, I like bet/call here...Of course, there is the ever rare check/raise/fold line too, but I think I'd rather show down the hand than take that line.Jeff

#15 TheIceman05

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 04:59 PM

screech said:

Turn:(3 players) Q :diamond: (9.75BB)UTG+2 checks, I...
...hit my perfect card, but still don't know what the fuck is going on.It's hard to imagine that we are not winning here. UTG+1 would have capped with AA/KK, or he's decided to get really stupid/tricky with it.Seems like the button was waiting for a safe-ish flop, which jives with our earlier read of something like JJ.Did UTG+1 the flop with AK? Or something like 99/TT? It might sound greedy of me, but now I'm really REALLY concerned with maximizing value. It's so hard for me to imagine that we're behind here...Unless... I've run into a few solid players who never open-cap with their monster hands. They'll flat-call with AA/KK because they're terrified/mildly concerned with giving their hand strength away.I don't know how likely this is, but this concern, coupled with my fear of giving up a free king/2-outercard, makes me lean towards betting.So I bet the turn. Ice

#16 KDawgCometh

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 05:03 PM

[quote name='Sysvr4][quote=screech]Turn:(3 players) Q :club: (9.75BB) UTG+2 checks' date=' I... What's my play?[/quote']I want to either CR this, or go ahead and pull a stop n go and bet this, I think the CR is best. Most likely we have the best hand, and right now I want to pump the pot. Only 3 hands beat us, but I'm not sure that that's case with the button as he CCed 3 and now we take two queens out of the equation.
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#17 TheIceman05

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 05:10 PM

KDawgCometh said:

I'm betting here. Its for value, we have two overs and a bdoor flush and the pot is ginormous. If we can get even one person to also fold incorrectly, then that's cool too
Based on reasonable hand ranges (especially for el Bhutan), how can we rate to have the best hand (or improve to the best hand) often enough for this bet to be for value?Ice

#18 KDawgCometh

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 05:16 PM

TheIceman05 said:

KDawgCometh said:

I'm betting here. Its for value, we have two overs and a bdoor flush and the pot is ginormous. If we can get even one person to also fold incorrectly, then that's cool too
Based on reasonable hand ranges (especially for el Bhutan), how can we rate to have the best hand (or improve to the best hand) often enough for this bet to be for value?Ice
well, its value because of how massive the pot is and we have 7.5 outs if we are behind(I've seen plenty of donks at this limit CC with some very odd hands)
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#19 screech

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 05:27 PM

FCP 3/6 (10 handed).Preflop: I'm in Hijack with A :) Q :club:. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.Flop:(4 players) 4 :D 6 :D 3 :D (13.5sb)UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, I bet, UTG+2 calls, I call.Turn:(3 players) Q :) (9.75BB)UTG+2 checks, I check, Button bets, I call.What's my plan on the river if a blank falls?What if I hit an ace or queen?

#20 TheIceman05

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Posted 10 December 2005 - 05:35 PM

KDawgCometh said:

well, its value because of how massive the pot is and we have 7.5 outs if we are behind(I've seen plenty of donks at this limit CC with some very odd hands)
Huh?1) Based on hand ranges, I think it's pretty tough to give ourselves 7.5 outs here. I think we'd have to be up against exactly 3 pocket pairs for this to be the case. Based on action, there are too many ways our opponents are likely to have at least an ace, if not a queen. This isn't super important, though.2) We need 4 callers for this bet to be marginally valuable IF we give ourselves the full 7.5 outs. I'd say the odds of this pot not being raised by the Button or UTG+1 are significant. I think we're going to the turn 3 at least 30% of the time, if the button is a reasonable player. If all 4 players call, we make a tiny bit of money.Add this to the significant chance of Button raising, this really CAN'T be a bet for value, can it?Ice




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