18 replies to this topic

[strategy]

Villain's VP$IP is 32% over 30 hands.Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxUTG+2 ($30.30)MP1 ($17.95)MP2 ($12.25)MP3 ($49.37)CO ($25)Button ($20.95)Hero ($33.60)BB ($24.40)UTG ($25.95)UTG+1 ($73.18)Preflop: Hero is SB with K:club:, 3:club:. Hero posts a blind of $0.10. 1 fold, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.Flop: ($0.75) K:spade:, A:spade:, 3:heart: (3 players)Hero bets $2, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $2.Turn: ($4.75) 5:spade: (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $4, Hero calls $4.River: ($12.75) 7:diamond: (2 players)Hero bets $4, UTG+1 calls $4.Final Pot: $20.75

[Scott3705]

If you're going to call a bet, then Bet/fold the turn.river have to call that bet because now he looks like he's scared of the flush. I'm not ready to c/r him and watch him wake up all of a sudden though.

[Scott3705]

or C/R the turn and watch his head spin.

[DrawingDeadInDM]

The check/call on the turn doesn't make much sense if you're going to lead the river.If it's one of those, "Fuck it, I'm showing down," then, just check/call the river.I think you need to bet the turn, fold if raised, bet the river again if just called. It's highly likely he's betting what he thinks is a scare card for you.

[pokerplayer24]

His line makes plenty of sense. On the flop he overbet with bottom a very vulnerable bottom 2.....well played.On the turn the spade hit so he figured he would check it to his opponent then reevaluate.On the river by betting out its more of a stopper bet as the last thing we want is for Ax to bet out 12 and put us in a tough spot. By betting 4 only better hands are coming over the top so we can safely call if raised and against an opponent who might check the river with Ax he is now calling a bet.

[DrawingDeadInDM]

pokerplayer24 said:

His line makes plenty of sense. On the flop he overbet with bottom a very vulnerable bottom 2.....well played.On the turn the spade hit so he figured he would check it to his opponent then reevaluate.On the river by betting out its more of a stopper bet as the last thing we want is for Ax to bet out 12 and put us in a tough spot. By betting 4 only better hands are coming over the top so we can safely call if raised and against an opponent who might check the river with Ax he is now calling a bet.

Even if he bets 12, that's just a pot sized bet, meaning we pay 12 to win 24. This means we must be good here at least 1 out of 3 times to be profitable, which, I think we are. I think he really over thought this hand, JMO.

[strategy]

DrawingDeadInDM said:

pokerplayer24 said:

His line makes plenty of sense. On the flop he overbet with bottom a very vulnerable bottom 2.....well played.On the turn the spade hit so he figured he would check it to his opponent then reevaluate.On the river by betting out its more of a stopper bet as the last thing we want is for Ax to bet out 12 and put us in a tough spot. By betting 4 only better hands are coming over the top so we can safely call if raised and against an opponent who might check the river with Ax he is now calling a bet.

Even if he bets 12, that's just a pot sized bet, meaning we pay 12 to win 24. This means we must be good here at least 1 out of 3 times to be profitable, which, I think we are. I think he really over thought this hand, JMO.

Over-thinking is usually my problem. I didn't want to call a huge bet on the end and I also felt like there was some value in getting an ace to pay off a bet when he'd normally check behind.Does anybody else want to vouch for trying a c/r on the turn? I didn't even think of it during the hand.It just occurred to me that I didn't even check the hand history to see what he had before I fed it into the converter. PokerTracker to the rescue

[Davin]

i really dont mind the way you played out the handrasing the turn still gives you no info if your opponents just callswe want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. by c/c-ing the turn and leading out the river, this is accomplished. in particular, the river play was nice since it prevents us from having to call a larger bet and we want to see a showdown. only a flush will raise us here.however, if we folded the turn, it wouldnt be horrible either.

[strategy]

Jesus christ, he had 5:diamond:4:diamond:...

[DrawingDeadInDM]

strategy said:

DrawingDeadInDM said:

pokerplayer24 said:

His line makes plenty of sense. On the flop he overbet with bottom a very vulnerable bottom 2.....well played.On the turn the spade hit so he figured he would check it to his opponent then reevaluate.On the river by betting out its more of a stopper bet as the last thing we want is for Ax to bet out 12 and put us in a tough spot. By betting 4 only better hands are coming over the top so we can safely call if raised and against an opponent who might check the river with Ax he is now calling a bet.

Even if he bets 12, that's just a pot sized bet, meaning we pay 12 to win 24. This means we must be good here at least 1 out of 3 times to be profitable, which, I think we are. I think he really over thought this hand, JMO.

Over-thinking is usually my problem. I didn't want to call a huge bet on the end and I also felt like there was some value in getting an ace to pay off a bet when he'd normally check behind.Does anybody else want to vouch for trying a c/r on the turn? I didn't even think of it during the hand.It just occurred to me that I didn't even check the hand history to see what he had before I fed it into the converter. PokerTracker to the rescue :lol:

Check-raising..eh. Not with the flush getting there. If we check/raise and get re-raised we have to fold, I'd think.I like bet/fold, though I understand the reasoning behind check/calling.

[mrdannyg]

what's heeb? hope it's not what i think it is.and i think it depends on what kind of cards you put your opponent on. if you put him on garbage like 54, then you played it perfectly. but if you consider him a decent player, i think you need to take one of the lines suggested above. can't help you out there since i suck at NL.

[strategy]

mrdannyg said:

what's heeb?  hope it's not what i think it is.and i think it depends on what kind of cards you put your opponent on.  if you put him on garbage like 54, then you played it perfectly.  but if you consider him a decent player, i think you need to take one of the lines suggested above.  can't help you out there since i suck at NL.

Heeb is what my poker-playing friends typically call low limit poker. We have a nickname for the losing low-limit player with an ego: Barry Greenheeb. :)I try to play the hand as best I can to eliminate possible holdings and get the most value. It turned out that this was the perfect play against 54s, but I was more concerned about losing as little as possible to a flush. Frankly, I like my line more as I read the arguments against it.I generally assume that my opponent is an idiot until he proves me wrong. It's worked so far at the $25NL level.

[DrawingDeadInDM]

strategy said:

mrdannyg said:

what's heeb?  hope it's not what i think it is.and i think it depends on what kind of cards you put your opponent on.  if you put him on garbage like 54, then you played it perfectly.  but if you consider him a decent player, i think you need to take one of the lines suggested above.  can't help you out there since i suck at NL.

Heeb is what my poker-playing friends typically call low limit poker. We have a nickname for the losing low-limit player with an ego: Barry Greenheeb. :)I try to play the hand as best I can to eliminate possible holdings and get the most value. It turned out that this was the perfect play against 54s, but I was more concerned about losing as little as possible to a flush. Frankly, I like my line more as I read the arguments against it.I generally assume that my opponent is an idiot until he proves me wrong. It's worked so far at the $25NL level.

Strategy, Just curious, what do you do if he bets out 10 instead of 4? If you call, do you lead the river?

[strategy]

DrawingDeadInDM said:

Strategy,    Just curious, what do you do if he bets out 10 instead of 4? If you call, do you lead the river?

I'm forced to make the decision on the hand on the turn if he bets 10. It's all the way or fold at that point.If I were to call it, I'd check-call the riv and hope to have him bluffing at it some of the time. IMO, with a bet of 10 on the turn, it's a nuts or nothing situation, so I'm not expecting him to have a hand I can beat but will check behind for a showdown.This could be too much thought for low limit NL, but it's just my inexperienced opinion.

[DrawingDeadInDM]

strategy said:

DrawingDeadInDM said:

Strategy,    Just curious, what do you do if he bets out 10 instead of 4? If you call, do you lead the river?

I'm forced to make the decision on the hand on the turn if he bets 10. It's all the way or fold at that point.If I were to call it, I'd check-call the riv and hope to have him bluffing at it some of the time. IMO, with a bet of 10 on the turn, it's a nuts or nothing situation, so I'm not expecting him to have a hand I can beat but will check behind for a showdown.This could be too much thought for low limit NL, but it's just my inexperienced opinion.

I think that's the line I'd take too, more than likely. Just curious.Good thread.

[mrdannyg]

strategy said:

mrdannyg said:

what's heeb?  hope it's not what i think it is.and i think it depends on what kind of cards you put your opponent on.  if you put him on garbage like 54, then you played it perfectly.  but if you consider him a decent player, i think you need to take one of the lines suggested above.  can't help you out there since i suck at NL.

Heeb is what my poker-playing friends typically call low limit poker. We have a nickname for the losing low-limit player with an ego: Barry Greenheeb. :)I try to play the hand as best I can to eliminate possible holdings and get the most value. It turned out that this was the perfect play against 54s, but I was more concerned about losing as little as possible to a flush. Frankly, I like my line more as I read the arguments against it.I generally assume that my opponent is an idiot until he proves me wrong. It's worked so far at the $25NL level.

i can see you did not have any malicious intentions, but some people might consider that racially insensitive. "heeb" is a term used for "hebrews" or jewish people, and that implies cheapness, which of course is a stereotype.maybe i'm reading too much into it, and i can tell you don't mean anything malicious, just thought i'd point it out in case other people get pissed.cheers,daniel

[strategy]

mrdannyg said:

i can see you did not have any malicious intentions, but some people might consider that racially insensitive.  "heeb" is a term used for "hebrews" or jewish people, and that implies cheapness, which of course is a stereotype.maybe i'm reading too much into it, and i can tell you don't mean anything malicious, just thought i'd point it out in case other people get censored.cheers,daniel

Wow, yeah, really didn't mean anything by it. Let's just hope this one makes its way into the memory hole. I apologize if anybody was offended.

[mrdannyg]

strategy said:

mrdannyg said:

i can see you did not have any malicious intentions, but some people might consider that racially insensitive.  "heeb" is a term used for "hebrews" or jewish people, and that implies cheapness, which of course is a stereotype.maybe i'm reading too much into it, and i can tell you don't mean anything malicious, just thought i'd point it out in case other people get censored.cheers,daniel

Wow, yeah, really didn't mean anything by it. Let's just hope this one makes its way into the memory hole. I apologize if anybody was offended.

it really is cool. obviously you meant nothing offensive, so ther eis no reason for me or anyone else to be offended. it's just one of those terms that have been imbedded without people realizing the implications.cheers,daniel

[Merby]

I really don't like the check on the turn. I think you should lead into him with about $3 - 4 (around 3/4 pot). A check is just inviting him to bet, and you learn NOTHING about where he is in the hand (flushes will certainly bet here... but then again, a lot of players will bet here to represent the flush, since you checked).You have to make them think that the flush didn't scare you (even if it did...). In this situation, if he raises here, you are pretty certain to be beat (with the rare "crazy/tricky player exception). Your bet is still a value bet here, because a lot of worse hands will still call (eg. flush draws (one flush card in villian's hand), big aces, gutshot straight draw with pair...).I have seen a LOT of players call a bet on the flop with a pair/ runner runner flush "draw"... or even the naked runner runner flush "draw" (and I use the term "draw" loosely).Oh and about the heeb remark. I had a similar experience: I used to always say I was jipped whenever I was cheated or ripped off -- until some one pointed out that the "jipped" remark comes from the stereotypes about gypsies. Ooops...Cheers,Merby