12 replies to this topic

[Naismith]

I was playing last night in a .25-.50 NL room. I bought in for 40 and was at 80 at the start of this hand. I had played well but a few hands before, a bluff was caught when the guy raised my bet all in...for only .05 more...so my feeling was that some of the better players were going to call me down more.Okay, with that set up, I was in the big blind with 7-5s. I had folded my last three big blinds to raises. An early position, decent player raised to 1.75 total. That was his standard raise and he usually showed down pretty good hands. A bad middle position player called. At the start of the hand, the stronger player had about 200 dollars in front of him. The other player had 9. I called assuming that the early player was strong and that a good flop could double me up and I didn't want to give away my blind to every pre-flop raise.The flop came 3-4-J rainbow. I checked, the strong player checked and the middle position (now the button) bet the minimum. I was prepared to fold to a real bet, but I called that. The turn came a 6 and made a flush impossible. I checked, the strong player bet 7 and the button called all in for his last 7. I let the clock run down a bit and reluctantly called. The river came an ace.Before I go any further, this is what I figured had happened. I thought the strong player had either JJ, AA, or AJ with JJ being the most likely. I think with just top pair, he would've bet the flop. The other guy was all in, so it didn't matter after the river what he had, but my guess is that he flopped a set of threes or fours and tried to induce a bluff on the flop. In fairness, he was bad enough that he could've been bluffing with the minimum bet and lucked into a set on the turn or he had A5 and thought his straight draw with an ace was strong enough to play. Like I said, he was pretty bad. :)Okay, so thinking my last player had a strong hand, I checked into him and he bet 15 dollars. Since I had just bluffed a few hands before, I immediately went all in over the top, hoping he'd put me on either trying to buy the pot or a weak ace. He instantly called.Now, that's when the fireworks started and I was yelled at for playing 7-5. I don't argue with people and I don't get into flame wars, so I didn't respond. Honestly, was my line of reasoning way off on my original call? I had stolen enough blinds to cover the price figured to be getting paid off big with the right flop, but if I'm wrong about playing in this situation, please let me know since I'm here to get better.Also, no one told me what they had, but I'd love to hear some theories. Peace,Jay

[Metro]

Technically, you weren't getting the odds to play your low suited connectors. But if you were trying to send the message across that you were going to protect your blinds, I see little wrong with calling this. Another 1.25 for $4.25 in the pot. Calling on the flop, definitely the right move, as you're getting your 6 to 1 implied odds for your gutshot. I'm not sure that I like your checking on the turn. The bet by MP wasn't large enough to insure he or UTG would raise again on the turn, so you're potentially allowing someone to see their flush hit on the river.Early position player - You said UTG was a decent player... hmm, I can't really see him pushing early with pocket 6s, and if he had a high pocket pair, I would think he would have pressed the action on the flop so as to not allow the others to hit their Ace. I'm going to go with pocket Aces. I don't think he was worried about anyone having the straight, but didn't want to let someone make the flush to crack his aces, so he pushed on the turn.MP - The fact that he called in MP, although he's a bad player, I'm not thinking he's got a set. I'm more inclined to think Ah5h. Puts him on the open ended and the flush draw, which would explain his little bet on the flop. Trying to pump the pot a little in case he hits his gutshot on the turn. When the 6 hits, he's 4 to the flush, 4 to the OESD. I could see him calling all in with outs like that. Either that, or midpockets. 10s or Js. 4 under cards, he thinks their good to hold up. Considering he's bad, he might not know to push harder on the flop to scare out the overcards that might hitThose are my best guesses considering I wasn't at the table to follow their play or see how good/bad they actually were

[Wilderness]

I think Metro was right on. You didn't have the odds to play your little suited cards, but if you'd been folding to raises in the blind and wanted to show you wouldn't be run over all the time, that's fine.Once you see the flop, I would have folded to a real bet as well but that's not what you got. The UTG raiser checking smells of slow-play. If he had AJ, I don't see him checking here, and if he had AK/AQ I think he would have bet out as well and hoped to take the pot down right there. So that leaves him with JJ-AA. Probably not JJ, but since you'd been playing with him, you would know better than I if he was the type to raise UTG with JJ. If he's got QQ then he got an ideal flop, but since he had two callers to his raise, he would have to presume that at least one of you is holding an A or K and so I would think he would bet out with QQ and not risk giving you all a free card. He could slowplay KK and AA pretty much the same, but I would guess he had AA because with KK he doesn't want to give a free card either.MP player ... he could have hit a set, but it seems more likely that he's got A5 of hearts like Metro said. If he hit a set, it seems like he would either slow-play it or bet bigger. His little minimum bet seems like he's got a drawing hand, probably a gutshot at this point with A5. Then he picks up a flush draw and open ended straight draw so he has no problem calling himself all-in.The UTG's raise on the turn just screams "I have a big pair and now I will make you pay for your draw. The bad player was more than happy to call with his bad pot odds, and of course you were happy as well since you had the nuts at that point. Since you knew the UTG player was good, then that was well-played to go over the top like that since you figured he would put you on something he could beat.

[Naismith]

Thanks for the responses. A quick point, though:Once the six came on the turn, a flush was impossible. When I checked, the only thing that could've beaten my straight was if the board paired on the river for a boat. I figured if the board pairing would beat my straight, than they weren't folding to a bet anyhow because they had a set...or a very unusual two pair!As for the odds, this is something I've done in tournament play for a while. I usually don't play cash games, though, so the thinking might be way off. If I can play a longshot for cheap (like a gutshot), I always assume that my implied odds are the other person's entire stack IF my read is right and they're packing something strong. In this circumstance, I figured a good hand and the 1.25 didn't seem like too big of a price to double up. Is this thinking (in either cash NL or tournament) really bad? Peace,Jay

[Metro]

Oops. Thought it said "possible" Funny how 2 letter can change my entire answer. I'll rethink the situation and get back to what I think they were holding later

[Jordan]

I think you played the hand correctly. You induced bets and calls as you wanted. What else could you ask for?Poker isn't all pre-flop obviously. You took a slight chance with baby cards and they paid off (calling a standardish raise to win his entire stack). I like this play even more cause this was a NL game (the implied odds obviously). Your "strong" opponent got unlucky, but then again, he could have lead, or check raised the flop bet (which is what I would have done had I seen you call the baby bet).How you described your prior play earlier on, this hand looked like a prime example of trying to sell a bluff when you have the nuts, which was exactly what you did. I too like trying to set up opponents, and as you did, it can really pay off when you pick the right spot and get a little lucky.Good job, keep up the good work.- Jordan

[Smasharoo]

Not getting the odds? He's getting like 45 to 1 to call if we assume the whole stacks in play, which it turned out to be.The goal is to double up with well disguised hands that can make the nuts, not to win 5BB pots with AK.The "good" player should have slammed the flop. That's the mistake in this hand, not the PF call in the BB with a hand that's easy to get away from and has virtually no potential to hurt your stack signifigantly after the flop.

[jogsxyz]

What's a NL room? Were you playing online? Doesn't the hand history show all called hands? Just check the hand history, then you will know and can tell us what everyone had.

[Wilderness]

Not getting the odds? He's getting like 45 to 1 to call if we assume the whole stacks in play, which it turned out to be.The goal is to double up with well disguised hands that can make the nuts, not to win 5BB pots with AK.Yeah, that's true, but at the same time you could then use those implied odds to play pretty much any hand. I don't think he made a bad play by taking a chance with his cards, although I'd much rather try it with suited connectors. All I was saying was he didn't have the pot odds for the call.The "good" player should have slammed the flop. That's the mistake in this hand, not the PF call in the BB with a hand that's easy to get away from and has virtually no potential to hurt your stack signifigantly after the flop.Definitely, the "good" player did not play his hand very well and got slammed for it. He has only himself to blame.

[Metro]

[quote="Wilderness although I'd much rather try it with suited connectors. [/quote]I like 1-gappers. They play much like suited connectors, but are so much better disguised. As Smash said, they're very cut & dry. You either hit your flop or you don't. How often have you sat at a table trying to put someone on their hand and thought... "Hey, I bet he has 7-5s" 7-6, sure, 8-7, why not.. 7-5.. 8-6... those are hands people don't often play. Makes for a lot more fireworks when you actually hit them

[Naismith]

Wilderness said:

Not getting the odds? He's getting like 45 to 1 to call if we assume the whole stacks in play, which it turned out to be.The goal is to double up with well disguised hands that can make the nuts, not to win 5BB pots with AK.Yeah, that's true, but at the same time you could then use those implied odds to play pretty much any hand. I don't think he made a bad play by taking a chance with his cards, although I'd much rather try it with suited connectors. All I was saying was he didn't have the pot odds for the call.

Again, thanks for all the responses.As for the implied odds, I think the difference is that my personal history with the original raiser made me fairly certain he was playing something strong. If he had a weak hand, the implied odds wouldn't be as high since we'd both have to hit in order for him to pay off my hand. Peace,Jay

[Smasharoo]

Yeah, that's true, but at the same time you could then use those implied odds to play pretty much any hand.Welcome to No Limit 101.This is why you raise pre-flop with premium hands, preferably enough to reduce the implied odds of drawing hands against hands which are ahead before the flop.This is why slowplaying AA pre-flop is so stupid in NL the vast majority of the time.

[KramitDaToad]

Naismith said:

Now, that's when the fireworks started and I was yelled at for playing 7-5. I don't argue with people and I don't get into flame wars, so I didn't respond. Honestly, was my line of reasoning way off on my original call? I had stolen enough blinds to cover the price figured to be getting paid off big with the right flop, but if I'm wrong about playing in this situation, please let me know since I'm here to get better.

Take the abuse on the chin, in fact welcome it. Your logic all the way through this hand is perfect and the abuse you caught shows that your opponents are exactly the sort you want - ignorant.Pre flop: Perfect, checking the raiser's and your stack size was giving you enough implied odds for a suited 1 gap then calling the raise. The only argument against calling here is your position - drawing hands out of position can be dangerous, however the BB reducing your call offsets that somewhat.Flop: Easy, check and hope to get the cheap turn card. An aggresive argument could be made for betting into a solid player with this flop to push him off AK, but I like to have a few more outs to back that play and the third player messes things up a bit here.Calling the minimum bet - no brainer.Turn: The I really like the check here and your logic. Reducing the cost of a suck-out to a full house is nice. If there were 2 suited cards in there I'm hoping you would have bet the turn hard to take it down there and then...River: This is the only part of the hand I would have played differently. With your read on your opponent I would have bet the river, with a weak lead (1/2 -2/3 of the pot).The logic here is to try and get his entire stack. With a weak lead you representing a pair of Aces. He is likely to call you down with any Ace of his own (assuming he would only be raising pre flop with a strong Ace) or may even make a crying call with a pocket pair. With an AK or AJ you may induce a raise which will build the momentum for a call when you come back over the top. For example you bet 15 into the pot of approx 27, if he is on the weaker hands of AK or AJ (albeit unlikely but still possible) and decides to raise thinking your weak, he will go with a 'correct' amount of about 45 (if he is raising exactly 3.5 times the blind it's safe assumption this is what he will come back with :wink: ) now your left with about 10 - 15 to raise with after matching that so its an automatic call for him.Of course with the hands you've put him on he's going to raise and not even think about calling a reraise - all his money is going in.With the check raise though, you are suddenly announcing strength, and likely a monster holding. A very strong player will stop at this point and review the hand - he needs to hold a big hand of his own or to be confident your bluffing to call. The other danger is he may be on a hand like pocket 10's which he will be happy to check down with on the river.If he is holding the AK or AJ here he will have bet the 15 and you may lose him to your all-in raise if he's capable of making good lay downsThe difference between these 2 is only slight, if he's got AA JJ or maybe even AJ, it's a safe bet his money is yours for the taking. However with weaker hands like AK, you will get the same amount if not more in the pot before he starts thinking about coming second...