27 replies to this topic

[NormanHaupt]

Okay, so, I'm looking to add some more *concrete* hands to my playing. As it is, I play the premere ones. (AA-88, AK-AJ)Now, I bought Poker Like The Pros by Phil and I've strayed away from some of his strat, but according to him, the next set I add are pocket pairs and Ax-suited.I've played both these shorthand to outrageous success. Does anyone have tips for playing them LH?I know they're all about hitting the flop, dealing with image, and knowing when you're a losing hand. I know to expect greater variances, too, and I'm fine with that. My question.. Do you play them differently before the flop? Phil advocates raising for equity. What do you guys think?

[UglyJimStudly]

I tend to only play little pocket pairs (from 22 to 88 or so) when I've got a lot of callers and late position. Odds of flopping a set are on the order of 7.5 to 1, so there need to be a lot of people to make it worthwhile, and I find they benefit from aggressive play so late position is a big help. Little pocket pairs in early position are a huge chip sink in my experience, so I avoid them. The key to playing them, and the reason for wanting to be in late position, is figuring out who's willing to fold to raises. If you can do that successfully, then little pocket pairs can be winners even when you miss the set.Ax-suited are actually a lot more straightforward. Again a loose game is preferable because flopping a four-flush or better is about 8-1. Position isn't as important, because given the right odds they're a pretty simple hit-or-fold situation.

[NormanHaupt]

k, in PPs, then, how about..44 on UTG, two limps ahead, bet out, SB folds, 3 others call.3 8 9 rainbow flop. Do you worry about over cards like that? What if you were in the BB and first to bet after being aggressive. Play like you still hold over pair?

[KDawgCometh]

first thing Hellmuth's book is awful for cash games, seriously it sucks. if your gonna play Ax suited you need a multiway going because if you hit your flush then your gonna want people to pay you off, or at least take the extra money that is in the pot. small PPs are great to limp with, and again its best to have a multiway going. If you hit your set you'll more than likely take down a nice pot. Suited connectors rock. I love them, but yet again you need a multiway for them to really work. You will everynow and then run into bigger flushes it isn't too much of an occurance to dread you with massive amounts of worry, you just needto be careful if a flush comes up and your getting reraised with your suited connectors

[UglyJimStudly]

NormanHaupt said:

k, in PPs, then, how about..44 on UTG, two limps ahead, bet out, SB folds, 3 others call.3 8 9 rainbow flop. Do you worry about over cards like that?

Depends on the field. If I think I can get them to fold, then I play like I've got aces. Much more often at a loose table, it's better just to write those cards off. Playing out of position like that, you have little leverage and a mediocre hand, so it'll save money over the long run to check-fold.

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What if you were in the BB and first to bet after being aggressive. Play like you still hold over pair?

Maybe for one round. BB hands are a little special because everybody knows they could be just about anything, so there can be a little intimidation in betting into a medium-card flop. But if nobody looks real timid then toss 'em in and save your money.Note that both situations are completely different if you're last to act - you can toss in a raise on the flop that often results in everyone checking to you on the turn, which allows you to see the river for free if you like or keep on playing like you have a big hand. Or if the action is hot and heavy, you can fold with a clear conscience. No matter what happens, you have a lot more information and hence can act a lot more decisively.

[Alcatraz]

Using book strats in a low limit game will cost you money. Phil is talking about games where players will lay down second pair to strong bets and games where a naked ace can take down enough pots to make AXs profitable.If you're playing at low level limit hold 'em, those cards must improve to win 95% of the time. You can play the small pairs against 4 people or more in an unraised pot because even tho you don't have 7.5 bets in the pot, you're going to get enough action when you flop a set to make it worth while.However if you play them from early position you don't know how many people are going to play nor do you know if there's going to be a raise or not. Therefore it's best to just muck them. AXs is a bit different because when you flop the 4 flush people are more likely to accurately read your hand. On the other hand, pairing the ace may win the pot as well. You still want to play in late position only. From late position you can raise on a 4 flush flop and earn a free card. If you do make your flush, being in late position increases the chances of getting a lot of money into the pot.

[wrto4556]

Axs, middle suited connectors, and small-medium pocket pairs suck! I don't know why I like'em.Seriously, if you play them correctly they have good expected value.#1) Burn Phil Hellmuth's "play poker like the pros". Then violently crash your head against the nearest hard object until you forget everything you learned.#2) Axs: You play this hand for flushes, trips, and two pairs...not TPWK. It's a leak to call down aggression with a measly pair of aces with a seven kicker. If you're in late position and it's checked to you, by all means, bet. But if you're in late position and there is a bet, muck your crappy ass hand without a second thought. If you bet, and are raise, call to see the turn, and the check/fold unimproved. Now onto when you can call pre-flop. I call with ATs, A9s, and A8s from EP in most loose/passive games; A7s-A2s from MP and LP. That's because I expect every pot to be multi-way, and less than 30% of those pots to be raised. If it's a tight table, they have much smaller EV and should be played less frequently. Same with a loose/aggressive table; you will be raised too much to make a good profit.Middle Suited Connectors: These are not the same as QTs or KJs. Those are big suited connectors that you raise with in multi-way pots for value. Your equity is good after 3+ players limp in fron of you. 87s and 76s should never be raised pre-flop IMO. No matter if it's a family flop or not. With medium suited connectors I follow a "pump it or dump it" rule. I'm not pumping 7 6 on a board of 2 7 8 ....so, i'm dumping. If you catch a four flush or a four straight...you should calculate your equity, and if you have an equity edge, start pumping the pot. Check-raise a LP raiser to trap 3+ players for 2 bets...raise after one player bets and 3+ players call...start pumping it; Pump it if you hit trips or two pair, obviously. Slowplaying sucks.OK, so if you are just starting out, if you can't pump the pot, dump it.Small And Medium Pairs: These are funny. For most beginners, I tell them to follow the "No set no bet" rule, the exemption being over-pairs. In most loose/passive games I will call with any pocket pair from any position. You will hardly be raised, and it will always be multi-way. If you are being raised too much pre-flop, stop playing'em up front. Simple. My main point, if the pot is multi-way, and you don't hit your set...drop it! Reverse implied odds are big multi-way, even if you think or pair of eights are good at the moment.Now onto a big concept with pocket pairs. Isolation. If an early position player raises, and everyone folds to you on the CO (or anywhere in MP or LP), 3-bet AA-77 to try and get the raiser head-up. If you succeed, your position will tell you if your measly pair is ahead or not. Flop comes 295 with 77, I would assume my pair beats his A-high. The problem with this is if you don't get it head up, you are in a wierd place with your little pair.Hope this helps.

[KDawgCometh]

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Now onto a big concept with pocket pairs. Isolation. If an early position player raises, and everyone folds to you on the CO (or anywhere in MP or LP), 3-bet AA-77 to try and get the raiser head-up. If you succeed, your position will tell you if your measly pair is ahead or not. Flop comes 295 with 77, I would assume my pair beats his A-high. The problem with this is if you don't get it head up, you are in a wierd place with your little pair.  

Normally I do like isolation, but in many small stakes games this play doesn't work unfortunetly as many fishies seem to think that if they've put in one bet and someone else has called the three bet then "why the hell not, its gonna be a big pot". This is why mid pair can be very tricky to play in a small stakes game. I like to limp or maybe, notice I said maybe, coldcall as you can hit a hidden set and reap the rewards. Isolation works better in 3/6 at the lowest but even better at 5/10 and up, but mainly at the middle limits and up

[wrto4556]

KDawgCometh said:

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Now onto a big concept with pocket pairs. Isolation. If an early position player raises, and everyone folds to you on the CO (or anywhere in MP or LP), 3-bet AA-77 to try and get the raiser head-up. If you succeed, your position will tell you if your measly pair is ahead or not. Flop comes 295 with 77, I would assume my pair beats his A-high. The problem with this is if you don't get it head up, you are in a wierd place with your little pair.  

Normally I do like isolation, but in many small stakes games this play doesn't work unfortunetly as many fishies seem to think that if they've put in one bet and someone else has called the three bet then "why the hell not, its gonna be a big pot". This is why mid pair can be very tricky to play in a small stakes game. I like to limp or maybe, notice I said maybe, coldcall as you can hit a hidden set and reap the rewards. Isolation works better in 3/6 at the lowest but even better at 5/10 and up, but mainly at the middle limits and up

Some folks with cold call three bets with T 4 , you're right. Maybe I shouldn't have put that in there. You got to know when it will work. Also, you can cold call a raise with pocket pairs if 2+ people have already cold called in front of you...or if like 3 people limp and then someone raises, you can call then, too. I don't recommend that with suited connectors, thought.

[NormanHaupt]

Wow, thank you for the very indepth reply.Firstly, yes, I'm using my book as a coaster now. I've got SSHE coming in the mail priority. Should arrive monday.I was going nuts with pocket pair and getting myy butt spanked today so I am backing off a little. People do seem to cold call me *a lot*. It was happening all day today and it's becoming a pet peeve of mine. I'll pull back and try a more subdued attitude.Just a couple of followup questions.Table image doesn't seem to matter much online low limit. I play .5/.10 exclusively and out of every table I play at, I can only seem to really nail 2-3 players on an image. Either wild soccer dad blowing steam or tight player. Any good tips with identifying them easier? Should I be 100% concerned on my cards and my own odds? low limit hold'em seems to be completely mathmatical.I hear talk of positions a lot- and I generally understand power and how it relates to the button. However, EP? MO? MP? LP?TPWK? -- oh! Top Pair With Kicker. Yes, I learned that lesson hard today.Statically, I've gotten my playing hands down to 35%. Now, I seem to end up in a low of shorthand too, and I skyrocket there because I loosen it up signifantly and really ride a wave. However.. I'm noticing that my showdowns are CONSISTANTLY below 30%. Thats.. 1/3 times I'll lose the showdown. I feel like there's some signifant leaks and times I should be tossing my hand. Granted, I'm having a ton of trouble laying down any pair period. I also raise a lot to scare pots. Usually, for every pot I lose in showdown, I'll pick up without showdowns. Kind of see my point? Now, I know Pot Odds. Outs x 2 + 1. How does this relate to EV?Can't pump it, dump it. Good advice, I'll remember that. I think I get in too much trouble calling.Thanks again for all the help, this is really appreciated.

[wrto4556]

NormanHaupt said:

Just a couple of followup questions.Table image doesn't seem to matter much online low limit. I play .5/.10 exclusively and out of every table I play at, I can only seem to really nail 2-3 players on an image. Either wild soccer dad blowing steam or tight player. Any good tips with identifying them easier? Should I be 100% concerned on my cards and my own odds? low limit hold'em seems to be completely mathmatical.

Watch for people that cold call raises...they are fish. Good players know not to cold call very many raises...especially so if the pot doesn't look like it's going to be multi-way. Watch how far people go with there hands..."always to the river"...."just the turn"<-----tells you a little about their game. Watch for people that raise, and people that just call....passive or aggressive....loose or tight....then put the two together...loose/passive....tight/aggressive.

NormanHaupt said:

I hear talk of positions a lot- and I generally understand power and how it relates to the button. However, EP? MO? MP? LP?TPWK? -- oh! Top Pair With Kicker. Yes, I learned that lesson hard today.

Sorry. EP=Early position, MP=Middle posittion, LP=Late position, CO=Cut off, IMO=In my opinion...any others just ask.EDIT: TPWK=Top Pair Weak Kicker, TPTK=Top Pair Top Kicker

NormanHaupt said:

Statically, I've gotten my playing hands down to 35%. Now, I seem to end up in a low of shorthand too, and I skyrocket there because I loosen it up signifantly and really ride a wave. However.. I'm noticing that my showdowns are CONSISTANTLY below 30%. Thats.. 1/3 times I'll lose the showdown. I feel like there's some signifant leaks and times I should be tossing my hand. Granted, I'm having a ton of trouble laying down any pair period. I also raise a lot to scare pots. Usually, for every pot I lose in showdown, I'll pick up without showdowns. Kind of see my point?

You have to really know when you can pick up a pot...it's not really as important as you think. If you are getting a whole lot of resistance with a little pocket pair and much overs on board, you have to show discipline and muck.

NormanHaupt said:

Now, I know Pot Odds. Outs x 2 + 1. How does this relate to EV?

I hate this way to calculate odds. If it works for you, by all means, use it. I use the formula:(x/y)-1=z Where x=# of unseen cards, y=# of outs, and z=odds-to-1Flush odds: (47/9)-1=4.22-to-1

NormanHaupt said:

Can't pump it, dump it. Good advice, I'll remember that. I think I get in too much trouble calling.

I'm bored...so I post of forums. When to pump it? That truely is the question. With a flush draw, you will win 18% of the time. Let's say 20% for simplicities sake. Pot is 10 small bets. Someone bets and 3 players call (14 small bets), 20% or 1/5 of 14 is roughly 3...and anytime that number is equal to or larger than 2 you should raise.Good luck!

[NormanHaupt]

I really do appreciate itI see I'm going to have to make a cheatsheet and leave it carefully hidden under my table like I used to do in chem class.Are there any exterior tools you use? I hear things like PokerTracker. Anything you highly recommend?

[KDawgCometh]

NormanHaupt said:

Are there any exterior tools you use? I hear things like PokerTracker. Anything you highly recommend?

Poker Tracker... Buy it, download it, get it, learn to love it. It will be your best poker friend be sure to get it now, your game will improve as you will then see where your leaks are and what your doing right. It is the most important tool that you can use for internet poker. It also autorates so that you know what you are, and it will let you know who the calling stations are and the out and out fishies. For 55 bucks you can't make a better purchase, its really better than a lot of the money you'll waste on bad books, and there are a lot of those. Seriously scrounge up the $55 and just get it

[wrto4556]

KDawgCometh said:

NormanHaupt said:

Are there any exterior tools you use? I hear things like PokerTracker. Anything you highly recommend?

Poker Tracker... Buy it, download it, get it, learn to love it. It will be your best poker friend be sure to get it now, your game will improve as you will then see where your leaks are and what your doing right. It is the most important tool that you can use for internet poker. It also autorates so that you know what you are, and it will let you know who the calling stations are and the out and out fishies. For 55 bucks you can't make a better purchase, its really better than a lot of the money you'll waste on bad books, and there are a lot of those. Seriously scrounge up the $55 and just get it

What he said. But i quote to say it again.PS> I posted a real good thread about pokertracker in the general forum...check it out.

[Alcatraz]

NormanHaupt said:

Table image doesn't seem to matter much online low limit. I play .5/.10 exclusively and out of every table I play at, I can only seem to really nail 2-3 players on an image. Either wild soccer dad blowing steam or tight player. Any good tips with identifying them easier? Should I be 100% concerned on my cards and my own odds? low limit hold'em seems to be completely mathmatical.

Low limit hold 'em is 95% mathmatical. Table image is only important when people understand and pay attention to it. Nobody cares that you folded 16 hands in a row and you're raising now, they've seen Gus Hansen play a 94o for a raise and win so they figure they can too.Most poker players make most of their poker decisions on a whim without really knowing why they do so.

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Granted, I'm having a ton of trouble laying down any pair period.

That's a MAJOR leak in your game. In a multiway pot with some action, the only pair that matters is top pair. Sure, you'll occasionaly get there with middle or bottom pair, but you will rarely have pot odds for it. Hanging on to those little pairs in the vain hope that they might be good or praying that the other 3 people in the pot are all just bluffing or on a draw is nothing more than giving your money away.

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I also raise a lot to scare pots.

Hard to scare the fearless. Most players at a low limit game aren't going to fold to a scare card unless they have nothing, and in fact most of the time pot odds dictate that they shouldn't fold. Chances are when they do, you're bluffing with the best hand. Better to check and show it down. Your bets are probably not winning enough pots to make up for the lost bets when you're called and beat.There are some exceptions to that of course, but until you have a fuller understanding of the game you aren't in a position to recognize them.

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Now, I know Pot Odds. Outs x 2 + 1. How does this relate to EV?

That isn't pot odds. That's a method used to approximate the percent chance of catching your outs on the next card. Pot odds are the odds the pot is laying vs the odds of winning. If there's 10 bucks in the pot and someone bets 1 dollar to you, the pot is giving you 11 to 1 odds (10 that's already in the pot + the 1 dollar bet to you). If your odds of catching a winning card are better than 11 to 1, you should call.Your odds are the number of remaining cards that don't help you to the number that do. For example, on a flush draw on the turn there are 46 remaining cards (52 minus the 4 on the board minus the 2 in your hand). 37 cards don't help you, 9 cards do. Your odds of catching a winning card are 37 to 9, or just over 4 to 1. In the example given above, the pot is giving you 11 to 1 odds and your chances of winning are 4 to 1 so you should definitely call.

[MrConceit]

wrto4556 said:

I'm bored...so I post of forums. When to pump it? That truely is the question. With a flush draw, you will win 18% of the time. Let's say 20% for simplicities sake. Pot is 10 small bets. Someone bets and 3 players call (14 small bets), 20% or 1/5 of 14 is roughly 3...and anytime that number is equal to or larger than 2 you should raise.Good luck!

Geez I amuse myself. I yelled at somebody for talking about pot odds in terms of 2 cards instead of 1 a week or two ago, and now I'm about to (not yell) talk about if you're JAMMING on the flop, you need to figure your chance to win over 2 cards. It applies primarily to flush and OESDs of course.First, if you're jamming, you want to talk about pot equity, the chance you will win vs your "fair share" percent compared to how many are still in active in the hand. So flush draw on the turn you're roughly 1/5th, so if 5 other people are in the hand, you will win more than your fair share (fair share with 6 in is 16.67 percent). And if it's on the flop, you're roughly 1/3rd, so if 3 others are in, you are winning more than your fair share of 25 percent. (As a side note to this example, if you don't hit on the turn you likely will stop jamming because you no longer will win more than your fare share vs 3 others on the turn. But of course you're calling on the turn based on pot odds.) The thing to remember is not to go crazy-stupid and do what a lot of people do and cap a flush draw HU. A lone flush draw is never the favorite HU unless he has literally nothing to your ace high or something.So don't look at the pot at all if you're talking about jamming. Pot odds is for calling. Jamming is about talking about bet odds along with pot equity. If the pot was ZERO on the flop, first to act bets, 5 people call, you should raise if you have a nut flush draw. You will win more than your fair share. Another thing to take note of, is you should only be jamming if you think people will still be calling. So if 7 people see the flop, you flop nut flush draw (and nothing else), if first to act bets, and you're next, here you typically shouldn't raise. I say typically because many many people won't be calling 2 cold, whereas if you don't raise half the time 4 of the 5 people left to act will call 1 more bet. If the people are your table WILL call 2 cold by all means raise immediately here. But if you're on the button, somebody in early bets, lots call, here you for sure raise because if they called one, they're going to call another. Unless you're certain the initial better will 3bet and make them call 2 cold, and even then in general you should be raising here.SSHE talks about this kinda thing some, and Gary Carson talks about it even more in The Complete Book of Hold'em Poker.

[wrto4556]

MrConceit said:

wrto4556 said:

I'm bored...so I post of forums. When to pump it? That truely is the question. With a flush draw, you will win 18% of the time. Let's say 20% for simplicities sake. Pot is 10 small bets. Someone bets and 3 players call (14 small bets), 20% or 1/5 of 14 is roughly 3...and anytime that number is equal to or larger than 2 you should raise.Good luck!

Geez I amuse myself. I yelled at somebody for talking about pot odds in terms of 2 cards instead of 1 a week or two ago, and now I'm about to (not yell) talk about if you're JAMMING on the flop, you need to figure your chance to win over 2 cards. It applies primarily to flush and OESDs of course.First, if you're jamming, you want to talk about pot equity, the chance you will win vs your "fair share" percent compared to how many are still in active in the hand.

That quote was about pot equity. There's an easy way to figure it out...I think if you are a 4-1 shot and you have atleast 4 opponents you should raise...i dunno. I stick to the hard core math.

[NormanHaupt]

Its gonna take me awhile to digest and comprehend all of this

[wrto4556]

EDIT: I realize now my example was for flop action...so your flush will come through 30% of the time...so the number you devide the pot by is 3, not 5....on the turn it's 5. Sorry.

[KDawgCometh]

wrto4556 said:

EDIT: I realize now my example was for flop action...so your flush will come through 30% of the time...so the number you devide the pot by is 3, not 5....on the turn it's 5. Sorry.

add another 5% to that(really its more like 36.5%, but 35 is a nice round number). This makes a difference. Your open ended or double gutshot straigh draws will come in 32% of the time with two cards to come.