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funny hand on party last night


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#1 weezer

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 11:11 AM

I'm playing 2-4 last night when I pick up 3 :) 6 :D on the button. Everybody folds to me and I raise on a steal, SB folds, BB 3 bets it, since I'm already in for $4 I call the extra $2. The flop comes 4 7 10 1 heart. He bets into me and I call to take 1 stab at the gustshot. The turn brings the 2 :) now giving me a flush draw. He again bets into me and I call(I know I shouldnt chase but it was heads up). Another blank on the river and now he slows down and checks. I figure he missed his draws so I bet into him, he takes up most of his allotted time and finally calls to take down a decent pot with K high. I just wrote lol, good call. I probably could have chased him out with a raise on the flop or turn but that was a hell of a call with K high. any thoughts?

#2 CoranMoran

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 12:43 PM

That was some odd betting with both of you chasing draws. Even if he calculated that he would win the pot a very small percentage of the times he was in that situation with King high, the incredible pot odds usually warrants the final bet.In limit poker, it is very difficult to bluff someone off on the river. And with you showing no signs of raising after yor initial bluff, and the large pot that was up for grabs, calling one more bet is logical.--cnm

#3 bsabres81

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 01:07 PM

One thing that troubles me that you said is that you were chasing because it was heads up. Its always better to chase multiway. Chasing a small pot on a draw (which is the case heads up) is foolish. That said, nice bluff on the river, you outplayed him. If someone makes a call like that on you, you can't worry about it because he will pay you off later when you do have it.

#4 weezer

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 01:50 PM

I didn't mean to imply that I was chasing just because we were heads up. I just thought I would have a better chance to take a stab at the pot if I missed against one opponent rather than a mulitway pot. thanks though. :D

#5 slogger

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 02:29 PM

As I'm sure you know, this hand was not played well. And the comment that you received about your opponent's bad call on the river should not distract you from the fact that you lost chips unnecessarily here.First, no need to steal with trash like 63 (suited or not). Remember that you're playing 2/4 here. That generally means that your opponents play very loose and go all the way to the river with as little as a couple of overcards. Unless you have a very good read on the blinds in this hand, you should not be attempting to steal with cards that low.Once the flop comes [4 7 T], there are 6 small bets in the pot - 3 from you and 3 from the BB. When he bets out, you are certain that you are behind (the only worse hands that are even possible are 32, 52 and 62, hardly 3-betting material, even when you think your opponent is stealing) and you should fold because the pot is only laying you 7-to-1 odds (the 6 small bets from before the flop :D BB's flop bet) and the odds against hitting your gutshot on the turn are about 11-to-1. Even though you may get lucky on occasion, this call will lose you money over time.Note how your preflop mistake (raising with absolutely no high-card strength) has caused you make additional mistakes. This is why adhering to high preflop standards is so important in limit hold'em- errors often compound and cause you to lose more than just the initial incorrect bet, and as you see, the hand became even more costly on the big bet streets.OK, so you see the turn [2h]. Now you've picked up a flush draw. BB bets again. What to do? Well, you've now "tied youself to the pot" somewhat. It should still be an automatic fold if it weren't for the heart, but when facing a big bet from BB on the turn, the pot is now laying you 5-to-1 (4 big bets + BB turn bet) and the odds of hitting your flush or straight on the river are about 3-to-1, so a call is correct.When you miss on the river, and your opponent checks, you need to ask yourself (given that fact that you have shown no aggression since your initial preflop raise) whether it is reasonably likely that your opponent will fold a hand that he 3-bet with preflop. There are 6 big bets in the pot, so a bet is risking 1 to win 6. That means that your opponent needs to fold more than one out of every 7 hands (that he would play like this) in order for the play to be profitable. When you take into account that this is 2/4 on Party Poker, I think the decision to simply fold here is easy - he's going to call with any pair, any Ace, and many Kings (and perhaps other hands, just to see what you have).In the end, an ill-advised steal play cost you 4 big bets ($16) that you would have saved had you simply folded the hand.Best of luck and play well. Cheers!

#6 LoaferGee

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 06:22 PM

wanna train me slogger? :D nice reply well thought out

#7 slogger

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 10:03 PM

:D I am but a rank amateur. I just love the game and have been studying and playing my butt off (when I'm not bogged down with work and other responsibilities) for about a year and a half.One thing I have learned with near certainty is that in most low limit hold'em games, your opponents will be playing very loose and calling with all kinds of hands (keep an eye out for the better tight players, of course) and you should play accordingly. Bluffs should be kept to a minimum, and even then should not be used at random. It is important to read your opponent's hand as being weak enough to easily fold and to attack at the exact moment you would attack if you had a very strong hand yourself. That is the only time a typical low limit player will give up his hand, and even then, he may not. Cheers!

#8 livitup

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 03:50 AM

Here's the thing...I wouldn't call this a funny hand on Party, I'd call it a normal hand.People at every limit I've played in PP will call blinds with any two suited cards, any two cards to a straight, and 99% will call the blind with trash like A3-o, just because they "got an Ace!!!"I'd call what happened to you a totally average had at PP. It's true that it's a little odd for your oponent to have called so many raises with trash cards, usually a big raise session will get them to fold all but the most attractive hands. Ah, but here's the rub... to them every hand is attractive. They remember the time they held 48-s and got their flush and raked in that huge pot... so they'll play every hand of suited garbage they get. I think a lot of them raise based on the phase of the moon.I never would have played that hand in the first place... ESPECIALLY with everyone folding to you. The only time I would have played that hand at PP is if there were a lot of limpers and nobody had raised yet.. The possibility of a big payoff, for one small bet, is worth it. However I would have folded as quickly as I could after the flop.There are 3 truths at PP...Nobody ever folds.Someone will pair their face cards with the board. (Because nobody folds)You CAN NOT BLUFF THEM. (Because nobody folds)Good luck out there. :D

#9 tekn0wledg

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 04:44 AM

My question is, why try to snap off a bluff on the end when your opponent was clearly running the show up until that point? He had no reason to think you actually had a hand since you never raised him and were only calling. To him it probably represented a draw at best, which it was. So this was a weak bet on the end that wasn't likely to make him fold his hand regardless of the check.In addition, I definitely would not chase with a gut shot while heads up. Open ended maybe in the right conditions, but never an inside straight. You want to make these hands as profitable as possible to show a long term +EV and the hand there just wasn't a +EV play at all. Even chasing heads up with an open ender wouldn't be a +EV play, sometimes however it's appropriate to play those and let your opponent know he's not going to walk all over you.

#10 slogger

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 08:20 AM

I agree with 'tekn0wledg' that the bluff on the end was bad, for reasons I stated in my initial post, and for the practical reasons he stated (although they go hand in hand).However, I have to take issue with something else that he said:"I definitely would not chase with a gut shot while heads up. Open ended maybe in the right conditions, but never an inside straight."Never say "never" in poker. What you need to be focused on is pot odds. The size of the pot should be the major factor in almost every decision you make. The larger the pot, the more correct it becomes to play weaker draws. Usually, of course, multiway pots are larger that heads-up pots, so it happens to be the norm that draws play better in multiway pots (both because of the additional money in the pot and the increased likelihood that you will win additional bets when you make your hand).But sometimes, a pot will become quite large, despite being heads up on the flop or turn. For instance, let's say it's folded to you preflop (similar to the hand above) in the cutoff and you raise with [Q :diamond: J :club: ] (now this is a better "stealing" hand than the one in the example). The Button, folds, the SB re-raises with [A:heart:Q:heart:], and the BB calls with[J :diamond: J:spade:]. You call the one additional bet.Going to the flop, there are 9 small bets in the pot.Flop: [ A:spade: T:diamond:5:club:]SB bets out with his top pair, BB folds and the action is to you. You are now heads up, but the pot is quite large. The pot is laying you 10-to-1 odds here. What should you do?The answer is certainly not to fold. The fact that you are heads up may change your prospects for winning a "huge" pot if you hit your hand, but it should not discourage you from "chasing a gutshot" in this scenario because the pot is very large.As I mentioned, the odds against hitting an inside straight on the next card are a little less than 11-to-1. Even though the immediate pot odds do not quite justify a call (though it's very close), it would be correct for you to call because of the fact that you are likely to win additional bets on the later (more expensive) streets if a K hits the turn. This is what is meant by "implied odds." Your implied odds are actually giving you a nice little overlay to "chase" your draw.Here, even though you are heads up with nothing but an inside straight draw, it would be correct to call (even if your opponent showed you his Ace). Cheers!




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