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bubble and big slick


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#41 holman3rd

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 07:54 AM

bobbytheo3 said:

haha, hard to believe you are so against that play considering you actually think folding is a viable option at all. folding is by far the worst play. going all in or a 3xbb raise are also good plays. i just think limping in gives you the best chance to double up here with a trap, which is what you are tryin to do to set yourself up to get to the final table. taking the blinds isnt bad, but you are enticing someone to make a bluff at the pot if you limp, especially one of the big stacks who thinks everyone on the bubble will be playing super-tight. folding is laughable, even if you raise 3X BB and somone goes over the top all in, you have to call at that point. your only dominated by AA or KK, but there are a number of hands you dominate and your pot odds are way to good to fold against any other pocket pair in a coin flip situation.
this is horrible advice, and you clearly do not understand bubble play.

#42 DwayneWayne

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 07:58 AM

Folding is much better then limping. I would love to see some other thoughts on this. Why do I know Im right? Because weve had 40 posts and no one said it!Limping and calling a raise? Why not just raise in the first place with a chance to win it right there. Poker 101.I pushed in real life but argued that with the bubble right that and you in no danger of busting out why folding wasnt a superior play. You might want to re-read the thread.Limping is 100% the worst of the 3 options.Folding. 100% make the money.Limping....????? for what? What are you gaining....? What are you doing the 66% of the time that you miss the flop and are now even more short stacked?

#43 holman3rd

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:06 AM

DwayneWayne said:

Folding is much better then limping. I would love to see some other thoughts on this. Why do I know Im right? Because weve had 40 posts and no one said it!Limping and calling a raise? Why not just raise in the first place with a chance to win it right there. Poker 101.I pushed in real life but argued that with the bubble right that and you in no danger of busting out why folding wasnt a superior play. You might want to re-read the thread.Limping is 100% the worst of the 3 options.Folding. 100% make the money.Limping....????? for what? What are you gaining....? What are you doing the 66% of the time that you miss the flop and are now even more short stacked?
I agree that folding is better than limping. In fact, I don't even consider limping an option.But, I think that 3x BB raise or a push is better than folding. True, there is a chance you'll bust out and not make the money. But, if you fold and hope to crawl into the money, chances are you'll be so short-stacked that you won't finish anywhere near the top, which is where the real money is at. Personally, I'd make a 3xbb raise if tight, skilled players were behind me. I'd push if weaker players were behind me. Some players are satisfied to make the money...nothing wrong with that.I prefer to try and finish near the top. AK is a very strong hand when you are short-stacked on near the bubble. Since I want to finish near the top, I'm not mucking it and then waiting around hoping to limp into the money.

#44 bobbytheo3

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:13 AM

"Why do I know Im right? Because weve had 40 posts and no one said it! "hahah, good logic. if the expert posters on fullcontact all say it, it must be true. i said pushing all-in would be a good play as well. cant go wrong there. youll probly steal the blinds. i just see it as a better chance of doubling up if you limp. i dont know, i could be wrong, but if you were someone behind me and saw me just limp, wouldnt you be more likely to make a move on me with a weaker hand thinking you could take the blinds plus a limper now. and if i miss the flop and someone bets out, i can fold and still have 5400 in chips to play with. but if i hit the flop, ill have position on the blinds and another great chance to double up. who knows. maybe ill ask one of the pros on the PP million cruise what they think.

#45 holman3rd

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:16 AM

bobbytheo3 said:

"Why do I know Im right? Because weve had 40 posts and no one said it! "hahah, good logic. if the expert posters on fullcontact all say it, it must be true. i said pushing all-in would be a good play as well. cant go wrong there. youll probly steal the blinds. i just see it as a better chance of doubling up if you limp. i dont know, i could be wrong, but if you were someone behind me and saw me just limp, wouldnt you be more likely to make a move on me with a weaker hand thinking you could take the blinds plus a limper now. and if i miss the flop and someone bets out, i can fold and still have 5400 in chips to play with. but if i hit the flop, ill have position on the blinds and another great chance to double up. who knows. maybe ill ask one of the pros on the PP million cruise what they think.
What would I do if was behind your limp? Depends on my read on you at that point.But, with no read, a limp looks highly suspicious to me, given your stack size. Smells like a monster looking for action.If I had a big stack, I might play back. Short stack, no way.Limps from short stacks at this point in the tourney look very suspicious.

#46 DwayneWayne

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:21 AM

PP Millions.Is that your claim to fame.A min raise would accomplish more then limping by giving you a shot at the 2100 no?

#47 holman3rd

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:26 AM

DwayneWayne said:

PP Millions.Is that your claim to fame.A min raise would accomplish more then limping by giving you a shot at the 2100 no?
I agree.Let me add that stack size of those yet to act is critical as well. Against all big stacks, I just shove the whole thing in. Don't want to tempt anyone to mess with me. If I run up against AA or KK, so be it.Against short stacks, I 3xbb raise (or thereabouts), especially if the players are tight. Granted, I may have them covered, so a push is no different here.

#48 bobbytheo3

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:27 AM

i agree with that. that means there is a good chance the blinds check to you after the flop and you can make a steal attempt there even if you miss it. if they are puttin you on a monster, they will only be able to call you if the they hit the flop real hard. either way, your hand is disguised well. thats why i think its a good outside the box play. the fact that no one out of 40 posters suggested it means no one else is puttin you on AK if you do it. any time your hand is disguised, you have an advantage over your opponents, whther they think your hand is stronger or weaker than it truly is.

#49 bobbytheo3

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:30 AM

why would you not want to tempt someone to mess with you??? thats the whole idea, you want somone to mess with you at this point. you probly have the best hand. this is your chance to double up. if you raise 3xx, you are showing strength and its less likely you get all your money in with edge. i still dont mind that play though as ive said, but im looking to double up here, not take the blinds.

#50 holman3rd

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:31 AM

bobbytheo3 said:

i agree with that. that means there is a good chance the blinds check to you after the flop and you can make a steal attempt there even if you miss it. if they are puttin you on a monster, they will only be able to call you if the they hit the flop real hard. either way, your hand is disguised well. thats why i think its a good outside the box play. the fact that no one out of 40 posters suggested it means no one else is puttin you on AK if you do it. any time your hand is disguised, you have an advantage over your opponents, whther they think your hand is stronger or weaker than it truly is.
now this i agree with. absolutely nothing wrong with this play if you know those to act are observant players. this gets into 'he thinks that i think that he thinks' thinking. Plus, mixing up your play is a good thing.hard to narrow down how often i'd try the limp in this spot, but i'd have to say less than 10% of the time. as usual, it depends. by the way, can you include the relevent quote when you respond to a particular post? sorry, sometimes i have trouble figuring out who you are responding to.

#51 DwayneWayne

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:32 AM

so your blind to the bubble?

#52 bobbytheo3

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:38 AM

im not sure how to do what you guys to to reference the quote. sorry if its confusing. ill try to include it in my responses from now on. i am not blind to the bubble, i just take the same mentality as all the top pros do, which is that youll make more money long term by going out on the bubble sometimes but making more final tables than you will by always squaking in the money.

#53 holman3rd

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:39 AM

bobbytheo3 said:

why would you not want to tempt someone to mess with you??? thats the whole idea, you want somone to mess with you at this point. you probly have the best hand. this is your chance to double up. if you raise 3xx, you are showing strength and its less likely you get all your money in with edge. i still dont mind that play though as ive said, but im looking to double up here, not take the blinds.
You are in middle position. If you limp and there are big stacks behind you, you are sure to get the action you want. Problem is, a big stack with any resemblance of a decent hand is probably going to call. When that happens, the SB is likely to come along and you're giving the BB a free ride.Suddenly, you have 2 or more opponents seeing a flop, and you only have a drawing hand. AK doesn't play well against many 0pponents. You have to limit the field here. Picking up the blinds is not so bad here.If anyone has a good hand (say a PP), well, now you've committed yourself to the pot as an underdog (you've already indicated that you'd call).

#54 holman3rd

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:44 AM

bobbytheo3 said:

im not sure how to do what you guys to to reference the quote. sorry if its confusing. ill try to include it in my responses from now on. i am not blind to the bubble, i just take the same mentality as all the top pros do, which is that youll make more money long term by going out on the bubble sometimes but making more final tables than you will by always squaking in the money.
not a criticism, just a suggestion. click the orange "quote" button at the top-right of any post you want to reply to.as for top pros, can you cite some books, texts or other references. i can't imagine that a top pro would advocate limping in middle position in this spot. maybe to mix up your game, but only a very small % of the time.i agree about the making final tables comment, but that's referring to playing aggressively at the bubble when most players have tightened up. it doesn't mean you should get fancy with AK in middle position, at least not a large % of the time.

#55 bobbytheo3

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:47 AM

yeah, holman, good point. i see how against a few opponents your hand doesnt play as well, but if you comletely miss and someone shows strenght, you can still fold and have a playable stack. i think id push all-in sometimes in this case, especially if i have loose callers behind me, but i just wanted to bring up the limping idea as a good outside the box trap idea. so many other factors apply, but i was surprised at how quickly that idea was shot down as ridiculous, because i see it as a good way to get all your money in with the best hand by using a little deception.

#56 DwayneWayne

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:47 AM

i agree with both of your thoughts and the bubble versus teh final table agrument is a good one (long term)i'm gonna post about a tournament last night....i'm curious to see how you guys would have played it.

#57 holman3rd

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:58 AM

bobbytheo3 said:

yeah, holman, good point. i see how against a few opponents your hand doesnt play as well, but if you comletely miss and someone shows strenght, you can still fold and have a playable stack. i think id push all-in sometimes in this case, especially if i have loose callers behind me, but i just wanted to bring up the limping idea as a good outside the box trap idea. so many other factors apply, but i was surprised at how quickly that idea was shot down as ridiculous, because i see it as a good way to get all your money in with the best hand by using a little deception.
Well, some people type before thinking...especially me sometimes!Harrington's book is one of the best out there on tournament play, IMO. Especially since he rarely advocates any one single line of play in any one situation. He usually talks about a few options, and then gives approx % as to how often you should try each. That said, he certainly points out what the best angle is the majority of the time.I think your trap idea is an example of a strategy that should be given consideration, but only a small % of the time (IMO).

#58 bobbytheo3

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:58 AM

holman3rd said:

[not a criticism, just a suggestion. click the orange "quote" button at the top-right of any post you want to reply to.as for top pros, can you cite some books, texts or other references. i can't imagine that a top pro would advocate limping in middle position in this spot. maybe to mix up your game, but only a very small % of the time.i agree about the making final tables comment, but that's referring to playing aggressively at the bubble when most players have tightened up. it doesn't mean you should get fancy with AK in middle position, at least not a large % of the time.
i didnt mean using top pros mentality when i said the limping idea speciifcally, i meant as far as their reluctance to attempt to squeak into the money. as for the limping idea, knowing your opponents behind you is huge. if any of them is agressive preflop, limping becomes more enticing a play, because there is a good chance they make a play on the pot with a weaker hand. if you dont expect a raise behind you from a late position player or the blinds, i say go all-in.

#59 holman3rd

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 09:03 AM

bobbytheo3 said:

holman3rd said:

[not a criticism, just a suggestion. click the orange "quote" button at the top-right of any post you want to reply to.as for top pros, can you cite some books, texts or other references. i can't imagine that a top pro would advocate limping in middle position in this spot. maybe to mix up your game, but only a very small % of the time.i agree about the making final tables comment, but that's referring to playing aggressively at the bubble when most players have tightened up. it doesn't mean you should get fancy with AK in middle position, at least not a large % of the time.
i didnt mean using top pros mentality when i said the limping idea speciifcally, i meant as far as their reluctance to attempt to squeak into the money. as for the limping idea, knowing your opponents behind you is huge. if any of them is agressive preflop, limping becomes more enticing a play, because there is a good chance they make a play on the pot with a weaker hand. if you dont expect a raise behind you from a late position player or the blinds, i say go all-in.
Now we're getting on the same page. And against "thinking" opponents, you may want to try a little trickery, but rarely (IMO).

#60 bobbytheo3

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 09:04 AM

yeah, holman, i should definitely check out harringtons book then. i like the idea of varying your play. my whole game revloves around deception. i like my opponents to never feel they have a read on me. the problem is, that doesnt work on the internet very well. people just dont pay attention. which is the reason i rarely ever play internet poker. in live home games and casino tournaments though, its much easier to portray the table image that you want.....dwayne, fire away with your other situation. these discussions are fun and im learning things.




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