20 replies to this topic

[screech]

Villian is 39/7/1.5 Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is BB with 2:club:, T:club:. 2 folds, Hero calls.Flop: (4.33 SB) 7:heart:, 2:spade:, Q:diamond: (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets, Button calls.Turn: (4.16 BB) 5:heart: (2 players)Hero bets, Button calls.River: (6.16 BB) 4:diamond: (2 players)What do you do on this river?If anything else sucks let me know.

[mb5322]

I fold pre flop, who cares if it's sssssssoooooooooooooooooootttttttttttttteeeddd, it's still trash, and if you do call preflop, I fold on the flop if I don't flop 4-flush, two pairs or trips. just my 2 cents

[screech]

mb5322 said:

I fold pre flop, who cares if it's sssssssoooooooooooooooooootttttttttttttteeeddd, it's still trash, and if you do call preflop, I fold on the flop if I don't flop 4-flush, two pairs or trips. just my 2 cents

I don't care that it's trash, but I'm very happy it's suited. I'm playing HU vs a probable blind steal getting a little more than 3:1 on my money.You may be able to justify folding the preflop, but folding this flop is just wrong. Do you think a pf raise always means AA?

[Sysvr4]

I fold PF too. You're OOP with a very marginal hand in a very small pot. As for the flop, the PFR doesn't mean AA as you say, but even if you've got the best hand on the flop you're what... a 65/35 favorite? If he were a habitual stealer, I'd say get aggressive and hope he folds the turn. I think once he calls the turn he's commited, but I like bet/fold better than I do check/call on the river once you're there.Jeff

[screech]

Sysvr4 said:

I fold PF too. You're OOP with a very marginal hand in a very small pot. As for the flop, the PFR doesn't mean AA as you say, but even if you've got the best hand on the flop you're what... a 65/35 favorite? If he were a habitual stealer, I'd say get aggressive and hope he folds the turn. I think once he calls the turn he's commited, but I like bet/fold better than I do check/call on the river once you're there.Jeff

If I have the best hand on the flop I'm closer to an 80/20 favorite.I still don't understand what line you're advocating. Are you folding this flop against a non-habitual blind stealer?

[mb5322]

Why post in strategy and ask for opinions if all the opinions you get you ridicule and justify your play, Strategy is a place to get several different opinions, then forming your own decisions from what you gathered?

[Sysvr4]

screech said:

If I have the best hand on the flop I'm closer to an 80/20 favorite.

You're at best like 3:1. Against something like A4s you're 71/28. So yeah, it's marginally better than the 65/35, but not much.

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I still don't understand what line you're advocating. Are you folding this flop against a non-habitual blind stealer?

Yep.I'm also folding PF against a non-habitual stealer.Jeff

[screech]

mb5322 said:

Why post in strategy and ask for opinions if all the opinions you get you ridicule and justify your play, Strategy is a place to get several different opinions, then forming your own decisions from what you gathered?

I don't mean to ridicule if that's what it seems like. I am asking for opinions, but if I think they're wrong I will state why. Maybe the the poster will recognize some flaw in their logic and become a better player. Maybe they'll explain their logic in a bit more detail and I can see why I'm wrong and become a better player.

[screech]

Jeff,where do you get these equity numbers? You told me before, but I forgot to bookmark the site.I'm curious as to what my equity vs AK0 would be here. I think it would be closer to 75/25.I still don't see how you can give up on this flop so easily vs a non-habitual blind stealer. There aren't many hands that this flop connects with.

[dms26]

mb5322 said:

I fold pre flop, who cares if it's sssssssoooooooooooooooooootttttttttttttteeeddd, it's still trash, and if you do call preflop, I fold on the flop if I don't flop 4-flush, two pairs or trips. just my 2 cents

Sometimes you have a fight against a late position raise, especially short-handed. Otherwise he will raise your BB every time. Plus you'll set yourself up for action when you do get a hand in the BB. It's not always about the cards.

[Sysvr4]

screech said:

where do you get these equity numbers? You told me before, but I forgot to bookmark the site.

There's a unix package that evaluates poker boards and there's a utility called 'pokenum' in it that calculates this stuff over every possible board. There are probably sites that have a CGI or PHP intereface to pokenum... google can prolly help you there.

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I'm curious as to what my equity vs AK0 would be here. I think it would be closer to 75/25.

You'd be right:pokenum Ad Ks - Tc 2c -- 7h 2s QdHoldem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 2s Qd 7hcards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVKs Ad 240 24.24 750 75.76 0 0.00 0.242Tc 2c 750 75.76 240 24.24 0 0.00 0.758

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I still don't see how you can give up on this flop so easily vs a non-habitual blind stealer. There aren't many hands that this flop connects with.

Because I have 0 visibility with bottom pair crap kicker and the villain can have any two cards. We're 3:1 at best, but there's a ton of hands that have us trounced that villain plays like this. Eg, virtually any pocket pair 33-JJ. And did I mention we're OOP? I hate that. Where's my fold button.Now, if he's been stealing from me 2-3 rounds in a row, I know he doesn't have to have a hand and I'm playing back at him like you did. I guess I tend to give people credit until they give me a reason not to do so. That may be our difference here.Jeff

[akishore]

hey screech,you should usually bet/fold this river without a read. only check/call if you have a specific read that villian is capable of bluff-raising this river after just calling down with no hand.aseem

[screech]

Thanks for the replies.In this hand I wussed out and checked. Villian checked and turned over AK. I vowed to never stop value betting in 6-max again.A few hands later, I value betted the shit out of 44 all the way to the river and got paid of by AQ. I love poker.

[DrZebra]

akishore said:

you should usually bet/fold this river without a read. only check/call if you have a specific read that villian is capable of bluff-raising this river after just calling down with no hand.

why not the other way around?i would have said c/c unless you have reason to think villain will not bluff-raise the river.

[akishore]

DrZebra said:

akishore said:

you should usually bet/fold this river without a read. only check/call if you have a specific read that villian is capable of bluff-raising this river after just calling down with no hand.

why not the other way around?i would have said c/c unless you have reason to think villain will not bluff-raise the river.

you think the majority of online players at 3/6 bluff-raise the river more often than not???aseem

[DrZebra]

No, but "more often than not" is not the issue.An incorrect b/f is much more costly than an incorrect c/c.

[AlphaOmega]

The issues with this hand concern how often we are ahead enough to play back at a potential blind-steal, and also for metagame purposes to show that we will defend our BB aggressively, which in turn sets up action when we make a hand from the BB, like another poster said. With these issues in mind, I certainly like pre-flop, odds are good getting a little more than 3:1 with suiteds against a potential blind-steal. It's useful considering the odds and for the metagame purposes of defending your blind.I like the flop as well, taking the lead in the hand by check/raising is good for metagame and you are most likely also betting for value against button's near random hand. Turns good too, for same reasons why the flop check/raise was good.The river is also a clear bet/fold IMO. We are going to call a bet anyway, best to bet it ourselves, and if we get raised, we lose 1 BB when we would have check/called into a losing hand, because he's probably not betting a hand that doesn't beat us on the river. Each expends 1 BB, and we are getting value from button by betting. Also good for metagame.Just curious, if we get raised on the turn, are we calling down or folding?

[screech]

DrZebra said:

No, but "more often than not" is not the issue.An incorrect b/f is much more costly than an incorrect c/c.

The frequency of an incorrect c/c is much higher than the frequency of an incorrect bet/fold. So yes, "more often than not" is the issue.Most players will never bluff raise a river after we have shown strength the whole way. The situation would be a bit different if I had check/called the whole way, and lead at the river. Now, a smart player may see that I'm trying to get value out of a marginal hand and throw in a bluff-raise. But even this doesn't occur all that often.The only time you should fear a bluff raise is if you're up against either:1) a smart opponent2) a maniac3) a tricky opponent.

[akishore]

screech said:

The only time you should fear a bluff raise is if you're up against either:1) a smart opponent2) a maniac3) a tricky opponent.

actually, i think it's tricky AND either smart or maniac.there are many smart players who aren't tricky enough to bluff-raise the river. likewise, there are many tricky players who are neither smart nor maniacal enough to bluff-raise the river.aseem

[TJ_Eckleburg]

Just out of curiosity...Do you fold if he raises the turn? I think I do.