4 replies to this topic

[Naismith]

The entirety of this refers to no limit...It seems like whenever I slow play anything, I screw myself...and believe me, for the most part, the lesson has stuck. I never slow play pre-flop. But when is it a good time to play slow post-flop in a tourney?The other night, for instance, I raised (from 25 to 150) from middle position with AJ suited and got two callers; one bad player that I've played with before who could've called with any big cards and another player I didn't know well but seemed solid. The flop came J-J-3 rainbow. At that point, I did something I almost never do...I used a weak lead trying to induce a bluff at it. I put 50 in and both guys called. The turn brought a K, which I thought was a good card for me because I figured the solid player was probably on AK. I made a small bet again and this time the bad player went all in. The other player called after a long debate. I called. The weak player had QJ, the other player had AK. The river brought another K.Now, I realize this was tremendously, tremendously unlucky and isn't a great example, but what criteria should I think about before trying to slow play a good flop? I never do with a flush draw on the board. Should I limit the move to when I flop a straight or better? Or should I just completely eliminate the play from my playbook?As always, thanks in advance.JayP.S. I consider these types of hands to be cheap lessons. If I can learn this one as well as how to put someone on a flopped set, I will have accomplished my two latest goals.

[Awful]

Honestly, I don't see how your example illustrates an inferior slowplay, the $ got in there with your adversaries drawing to 2 and 3 outs, respectively, with the guy with 3 outs having another 3 for the split. Here's my rules for slowplaying, stolen in parts from Caro, Sklansky, and the Poker School of Experience.1. Don't let draws if reasonable beat you for free. Use preflop action to know the general sort of hands out there. Unraised pots you can never slowplay, there's always ridiculous crap out there. Bad players will get their money in with anything postflop as well as preflop, so don't slowplay them much, another case where reads are tough.2. The strength of the hand makes no difference. Beatability is what does it. Flop a straight on a rainbow board or trip jacks on the one you described, and you are good. AK had to hit the K to have a draw against you even. If a straight can connect (that's within reason given the preflop and the players), don't slowplay trips. If you flop a straight, even an obvious one, play it fast with 2 on the board. Trip jacks on a JJ9 board you wanna speed up because of the straight draw. With JJQ or JJK, you have to be careful about running into a made full, but you also fill up when one of the straight cards hits... that's a tricky board. Consider what beats you with 1 card before taking it slow.3. When you flop trips, beware if the 3rd card is connected to the trips as that increases the liklihood of being up against a full and be trapped yourself with 3 outs. Mentioned above, but if you're getting mad action on a 667 board when you hold A6s, you might be going home VERY unhappy, but it's not so dangerous if it comes down 992 to your A-9s. Also note that slowplaying one of the boards where you may run trips into a full has the purpose of also minimizing losses as many opponents will seek to trap with their awesome flopped full. You lose nothing by checking along when you can be behind, given that your opponent is as likely to play the hand that connected for the full preflop as any draws enabled by that same hand.4. Take into account the deception of a hand when deciding to slowplay or not. If you hold 66 on a board of 2-6-K rainbow, fire away and find someone you can break. If you flop 5-7-8 rainbow to your 6-9 (BB special, I hope) you may want to stab at it instead.5. Take into account what others can have as made hands; if you can get big action now, take it while you're even further ahead. In your example, someone had the case jack. In that case, he would get it all in with you on the flop if you played it real fast. If you flop 7QQ to your 77, play fast, see if someone has a Q to pay you off (and doesn't hit their kicker or a running pair). Additionally, you don't want to give free cards that could make you hold the idiot full, as in that example. 6. Take into account your image. The faster you play with nothing, the faster you want to play the nuts because someone is looking for a big pot with you, and is less likely to put you on a monster. Conversely, if you're getting the reputation as a tight kinda weak player, check big hands too to keep someone off your back. 7. Take into account your position. Checking, then calling screams strength. In LP be less inclined to trap by check-calling, as your check will be checked behind on the turn by aware players that respect you (if they can't help but fire the next barrel, go ahead). Check-raise since you're otherwise ruining future streets in most cases. At least the check-raise can be attributed to a bluff, and mucking to check-raises slows down someone's pot-stealing game. A check call says "I have what you are betting beaten". In LP smooth-calling gives away less strength and he can't show weakness by checking the turn either, as that's essentially waving the white flag and saying "bet big into me and take the pot". It's a lot easier to trap in LP, and one check-behind on the flop can wake most aggressive players up on the turn as it shows fear in not making a positional bet into an opponent showing weakness.Slowplaying is a good tool to keep very aggressive players in line if they've been whamming on you. Do it by raising their bets and not check-calling in NL, because this will open up the resteal for you on scary boards and allow you to take the fight to them. In addition, in NL check-calling screams strength.Slowplaying is also commonplace, and people like to do it because it's fancy and manipulative. Do it when it meets the rules and has value, but know that people think about it a great deal. You have no idea how many times I've bet the flopped nuts hard and gotten paid off by someone whose next line was "thought you'd slowplay something that big". Now stealing from Smasharoo, "Fastplaying is the new slowplaying", it actually works that way sometimes.

[MrConceit]

Awful said:

Slowplaying is also commonplace, and people like to do it because it's fancy and manipulative. Do it when it meets the rules and has value, but know that people think about it a great deal. You have no idea how many times I've bet the flopped nuts hard and gotten paid off by someone whose next line was "thought you'd slowplay something that big". Now stealing from Smasharoo, "Fastplaying is the new slowplaying", it actually works that way sometimes.

I only quoted the end, but that was a great post Awful.And I know the thread is about NL, but I second Smasharoo's saying. That's how I tend to play things in limit. Especially with flopped trips. Nobody believes you play flopped trips fast -- ever. By trips, I do mean trips, not a set. Not that I don't play sets fast too, but it's the board pair flops that nobody believes you would ever play fast.

[Alcatraz]

I agree, if someone comes out betting hard on a paired board, I almost never give them credit for having the hand.That said, it might not have made a difference in the case you gave. If you played it hard, the AK may have put you on a bluff and called you down, still making his ridiculous runner/runner draw.Tonight in a ring game I flopped a 4 flush with an inside straight draw. I called the bet from the BB. I turned the straight and smooth called again. The river put the straight on the board and the bb, who had been betting overcards (and an inside draw on the turn) ended up making a bigger straight as a result.I don't hate my slowplay here because the BB was the kind of player that would have fired again on the river no matter what, but would have folded to a raise on the turn. He had 3 outs from 44 cards remaining, so he was a 41 to 3 dog. There was 110 in the pot on the turn and he would have probably bet another 40 on any river. 41 times, my slow play gains me 40 dollars, and 3 times I lose 150 (since I paid off his river bet). Over time, slow playing earns me 1600 extra dollars while losing 450, for a net profit of 1150.Tournaments are a bit different since losing the chips actualy costs you a lot more.

[Naismith]

Awful, that was a great post. Thanks for the response. Everyone else, too. I wasn't really concerned about the specific story I used, just that I always seem to lose when I slow play and was wondering what others look for before doing it. My first reaction when I flop a set is "oh my God, don't bet. They'll know you have a set!" :)The slow playing trips to a connecting board reminded me of one of my very first tournaments. I had pocket sixes in an unraised pot from one of the blinds and I think either six or seven other people were in. The board came 4-6-7 with two diamonds. I checked from the beginning to get in the very fancy and advanced check-raise...but no one bet. The turn brought the 5 of diamonds. Now I checked out of fear. The river brought a fourth diamond and finally the guy to my left fired out 15 chips, the minimum bet. Everyone else folded and I called, winning with my six of diamonds. Even then, uneducated at the game as I was, I was embarrassed by my play. I guess that would qualify as a dangerous flop to play slowly? ;)Peace, Jay