when do you lay down aces?

[Alcatraz 0]

Playing .50/1 No limit I've got pocket rockets UTG. I double the blind, hoping to trap someone. My table image was pretty tight and a larger raise would likely have earned me just the blinds... as it is, only the big blind called me.The flop came K73 rainbow and the BB made a pot size raise. I raised back, about triple the size of his raise. He came over the top for about half his stack. I called.Turn came 9, he moved all in, and I called him down. He showed a 93 suited and won a $150 pot (yes, one hundred and fifty at a 50 cent/one dollar game).With better than 80 already in the pot, was I wrong to call another 40 on the turn?

[the_stein 0]

well your problem is you didn't think about the SIKoh yea and "don't double the blind to trap someone"

[Alcatraz 0]

well your problem is you didn't think about the SIK

You're right' date=' I didn't think about the SIK. In fact I'm still not thinking about the SIK.Um... what the heck is the SIK?[/quote']oh yea and "don't double the blind to trap someone"Is there a better way to trap someone? Or do you mean I shouldn't be trying to trap with my AA? Had I raised more pre flop, I would have picked up the blinds. While this is vastly superior to the result, I don't really mind someone 3 betting bottom pair for half their stack against my AA in general. The result sucked ass in this situation but I'm not particularly concerned about that. I believe both my preflop and flop play had positive EV, my question is the turn call.

[Smasharoo 0]

With better than 80 already in the pot, was I wrong to call another 40 on the turn?Not really.You were wrong to play Aces so slowly pre-flop though.Stop doing dumb things like that.

[Alcatraz 0]

You were wrong to play Aces so slowly pre-flop though.Stop doing dumb things like that.

Yes sir!Although I disagree. Aces are too good to just win the blinds.

[FOOSE1 0]

I learned this lesson long ago . . . it's better to win a small pot . . . than to lose a big one!!DO NOT SLOW PLAY BEFORE THE FLOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Smasharoo 0]

Yes sir!Although I disagree. Aces are too good to just win the blinds.You're free to disagree.You're wrong though.You'll figure out why eventually.

[Alcatraz 0]

Remember, it's about winning money, not pots.

A little bit later I was playing at the same limits but a very different table. This new table was much more inclined to call preflop raises and so I made a larger raise UTG with pocket queens. I lost again to 87o but that's not why I bring it up -- It was a different table with different players and I knew that I could get action with my preflop raise. In the prior example, I knew that a large preflop raise would win the blinds and nothing else.In a large game, taking the blinds is a good thing. In a fifty cent/dollar game, I'm not interested in stealing blinds.

[Smasharoo 0]

In a large game, taking the blinds is a good thing. In a fifty cent/dollar game, I'm not interested in stealing blinds.You're right, stealing the blinds would be much worse than losing 100X the blinds to some funky two pair who's only in the hand at all because of your weak pre-flop play.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Yes, always raise it up with bullets.I mean if you had gone for $4 raise, he came back with a reraise of $12, you then go to $36 and he goes all in you can safely say to yourself "He must have the SIK" and you can bin your second best hand... :shock:

[copernicus 0]

your objective with AA in no limit is to get action, but isolate the opponents to 1 player, and you accomplished that. Your opponent happened to be a joker who caught cards on this one.However, unless youve got a super read on your opponent (which would have been wrong in this case anyway) you have to expect a set, 2 pair, or AK from him. A total bluff just doesnt seem to make sense given the small size of the pot going into the flop, and playing anything but TPTK that strongly is at least a semi-bluff.Since there are only 6 AK's vs 9 sets plus 27 possible 2 pair combinations you are a 6/1 dog on cards. Throw in 12 awful KQ's played that way and youre still a 2/1 dog. (If I can count after no sleep!) For you to go toe to toe with him you would have to be playing him for a bluff well over half of the time. (In fact he should be semi-bluffing less than 1/3 of the time with bottom pair.) Unfortunately he was bluffing but managed to turn the right card.Winning no-limit play is winning a lot of small pots (but not just blinds with AA!), and an occasional big win with the nuts, and not going for a ride without the nuts. Going for > 70 bb's without the nuts is nuts!

[JFarrell20 1]

In a large game, taking the blinds is a good thing. In a fifty cent/dollar game, I'm not interested in stealing blinds.You're right, stealing the blinds would be much worse than losing 100X the blinds to some funky two pair who's only in the hand at all because of your weak pre-flop play.

lol. He's right. Look what happened you lost like $75 because you got greedy.

[KDawgCometh 2]

anytime I've gotten cute with aces it always backfires. Don't mess around with them, its always better to win a small pot then lose a big one

[Guest XXEddie]

well your problem is you didn't think about the SIKoh yea and "don't double the blind to trap someone"

yeah your asking for trouble

[Joenin 0]

Theres a few things I wanted to comment on here. Firstly if they not paying off your raises your playing too tight and should steal more blinds. They start not respecting them at all you tighten up and punish them, play according to the game! Secondly, it probably be a better move to raise a bit more then the 2x as that gives all kinds of people with all kinds of random hands a good shot to take a shot at you and you know you have a hand thats will be hard to get away from. NL is about difficult decisions and you will have to make them, but its more then alright to try to avoid them as much as possible to. Also remember your UTG, do you really wanta anyone but the blinds who calls position on you?. Lastly I think you had to call this turn but shouldn't of had to call it. You should be folding this hand or moving in on the flop and the answer to that is as much math as how the game is playing & how that opponent is playing.

[Aburame Shino 0]

If you've got rockets, you should play very aggressively before the flop. Calling one more dollar isn't going to scare anybody at small limit in the big blind. I'd have made it three fifty. Better to win a small pot with a killer hand than to stay in the hand and get killed by a lucky hand.

[copernicus 0]

"In a large game, taking the blinds is a good thing. In a fifty cent/dollar game, I'm not interested in stealing blinds. "The size of the game should be irrelevant to whether or not you are interested in stealing blinds. The ability to occasionally steal blinds and pick up 3/4 of a big bet without a lot of risk is still 3/4 of a big bet vs an average return of 1-2 bbs per hour, whether a bb is $1 or $1oo. If you arent interested in stealing blinds because the limit is too low to bother with, you probably have other leaks because the limit is too low. Why give away money?

[Alcatraz 0]

I misspoke. I have no problem stealing blinds no matter the size of the game. When I have aces, I want more than just the blinds. Over the course of my life time I've made far more by making small raises pre flop with aces than I have lost. My question was not about the pre flop play. I understand that several of you disagree with my preflop play. That's fine, we can agree to disagree. I mentioned the preflop play only to help set up the hand.My question is entirely on the post flop play. Is there a point in the hand that I should have laid the aces down, and if so when and why?

[ljjr_99 0]

I'm almost to the point where i just fold rockets. Everytime i play them it doesn't matter if i try to slow play them or go all in pre flop some joker calls me and gets two pair or trips...i have a better winning percentage when i play 10-2 offsuit

[onthebutton 0]

Slowplaying AA just asks for disaster. After the flop, it's just another pocket pair--so when do you lay it down? When you think it's beat, that's when.

[PrtyPSux 0]

Two things..and I want your opinions on them.Slowplaying aces is ok to do once in a while because yess..winnig 1.50 does suck when you got the best hand, but if your slowplaying dont raise just a little.. that looks too wierd,,either raise big or just limp and hope to god that someone raises, when they do, re-raise big..big enough to where they know you have aces. then if they call, your money is going all in on the flop because your not going to fold them no matter what..no one can, not even phil hellmuth, yes it will suck if you lose to trips but there is no way you can lay that down, and the other guy should not be calling such an obvious trap with anything other than k's..now if no one raises then you play wayyy more carefully on the flop turn and river you can even fold if its a five person flop and a flush or something hits and theres raises and reraises (i did it once in a family pot that came jj99 I was right about it too it made me proud,,lol)...now im not saying that slowplaying aces is a good play im just saying that it is allright to do it once in a blue moon in special situations but do it right..the other thing is that I like to slowplay weaker hands like q's ak or aq suited and do the same re raise that way if theyre smart they'll fold if theyre not i still have a good hand and if they put me all in i can always fold. sometimes I show them the hand so that when I have the aces or the k's UNG i can do the same play and get a caller w/ an ak..what do you guys think? wrong advise,.. right advice? any comments?ps again im not saying its right to slowplay aces im just saying that might be the right way to do it

[PrtyPSux 0]

Two things..and I want your opinions on them.Slowplaying aces is ok to do once in a while because yess..winnig 1.50 does suck when you got the best hand, but if your slowplaying dont raise just a little.. that looks too wierd,,either raise big or just limp and hope to god that someone raises, when they do, re-raise big..big enough to where they know you have aces. then if they call, your money is going all in on the flop because your not going to fold them no matter what..no one can, not even phil hellmuth, yes it will suck if you lose to trips but there is no way you can lay that down, and the other guy should not be calling such an obvious trap with anything other than k's..now if no one raises then you play wayyy more carefully on the flop turn and river you can even fold if its a five person flop and a flush or something hits and theres raises and reraises (i did it once in a family pot that came jj99 I was right about it too it made me proud,,lol)...now im not saying that slowplaying aces is a good play im just saying that it is allright to do it once in a blue moon in special situations but do it right..the other thing is that I like to slowplay weaker hands like q's ak or aq suited and do the same re raise that way if theyre smart they'll fold if theyre not i still have a good hand and if they put me all in i can always fold. sometimes I show them the hand so that when I have the aces or the k's UNG i can do the same play and get a caller w/ an ak..what do you guys think? wrong advise,.. right advice? any comments?ps again im not saying its right to slowplay aces im just saying that might be the right way to do it

[bsabres81 0]

Yes, you are absolutely right. Either make a reasonable raise, or just limp in. There is no benefit to raising the minimum. It has to be an aggressive table, or slowplaying aces is foolish. Obviously at a passive table you will always raise with aces.If you limp with aces and no one raises, you generally are beat if anyone is putting a lot of money in the pot after the flop.

[Alcatraz 0]

Ok, for those who say I should raise more with my aces....PokerStars Game #1228536596: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2005/02/17 -03:14:38 (ET)Table 'Lucifer' Seat #7 is the buttonSeat 2: LBcat ($2.76 in chips) Seat 3: trevzyn ($3.58 in chips) Seat 4: LuckyLenny ($1.26 in chips) Seat 5: yotefan ($0.79 in chips) Seat 6: ArnoldLayne ($2.56 in chips) Seat 7: vbgtulip ($2.43 in chips) Seat 8: may50 ($1.04 in chips) may50: posts small blind $0.01LBcat: posts big blind $0.02*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to LBcat [Ad As]Woohooo rockets in the BB, time to pump it up.trevzyn: calls $0.02LuckyLenny: calls $0.02yotefan: folds ArnoldLayne: folds vbgtulip: calls $0.02may50: raises $0.02 to $0.04LBcat: raises $0.16 to $0.20trevzyn: calls $0.18LuckyLenny: calls $0.18vbgtulip: folds may50: calls $0.16There's plenty of money in the pot already, I'm happy to take it now. Raising to 20 oughta knock everyone out, right? Nope... 3 callers. I'm drolling.*** FLOP *** [Ah 8c 4d]may50: checks LBcat: checks trevzyn: checks LuckyLenny: checks Ok. Mistake. The pot was big enough, I should have ended it then and there. But with a set of aces, a rainbow board and unconnected cards, I couldn't think of a better time to check and get some extra action. Now I'm hoping to represent a hand like KK or QQ afraid of the ace, and then get some action on the turn when an ace bets out. Sure enough, it worked.*** TURN *** [Ah 8c 4d] [6h]may50: bets $0.12LBcat: raises $2.44 to $2.56 and is all-intrevzyn: folds LuckyLenny: calls $1.06 and is all-inmay50: folds May raised preflop, my big raise was a reraise. Pretty sure she has a big ace, AK or the like. Wonder what the hell Lenny is calling with here? I'm thinking A8s or maybe 66, after all he did call the big raises preflop, he couldn't possibly be playing a 57.*** RIVER *** [Ah 8c 4d 6h] [Qc]*** SHOW DOWN ***LBcat: shows [Ad As] (three of a kind, Aces)LuckyLenny: shows [5h 7h] (a straight, Four to Eight)LuckyLenny collected $2.91 from potWell well what do you know. Sucks to be me.Yes, I let him get the free card for his 4 outer. Given his willingness to play the hand for a 10x bb raise preflop, I'm not sure it would have mattered if I'd gone all in on the flop anyway. Protecting my aces here did me just as much good as making a small raise. Either way they were cracked by junk.

[HtotheNootch 0]

Like much of poker, I would think the situation would have a lot of influence on the best play.If you know someone else wants to raise, then limp/small raise is probably best. Maybe even calling an earlier raise, what TJ Cloutier referred to as "Second Hand Low". That could work.However, sometimes the best move is just betting out, and betting out Big.I think everyone here had a good suggestions.