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QQ, can you fold in an online tourney?


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#1 Great_One82

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 12:48 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------- I was playing a 50 dollar 10 person tourney, on party poker, in the 2nd hand of the tourney, I get dealt QQ. Start with 1000 chips, I'm in the big blind, and first to act raises to 85, about 5 times the blind, everyone fold to the button who calls. I decided to take the flop and if an A or K hit I can fold. Flop is 8 6 2, rainbow, I check/semi trap to see where I'm at. Original raiser bets 250(the pot), if the button calls or goes all in I will call, as he is very aggresive, and I saw him double up on the first hand w/ a7 all in pre vs KK. He folds, and it comes to me. Now I've played for about 1-2 years now, and everytime this has happend to me, I just get a feeling in my guts that he has KK or AA, and for some reason they do. I've probably lost 4-5 tourneys where I just couldnt fold QQ. I think for awhile, type in I have QQ and will fold it. He shows JJ, which I'm disgusted about. However I do place 2nd in the tourney, so it wasn't a total lose. I'm just wondering would anyone else do the same thing? What are your thoughts. I mean in these online tourneys you don't get that many hands to play as the blinds go up too fast.
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#2 Incubus77546

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 01:24 PM

Yes QQ is a very unpredictable hand whether you win or lose... as for the situation you were in I would've gone all the way unless an Ace or King would come up in the community. The only hands that he would have advantage on you is AA, KK, or AK if he were to have an Ace with a low kicker or same with a King then he basically needs to get his cards in the community. Now the guy with JJ I can feel for you because he was probably thinking the same thing. You just happened to fold when you had the best cards... dont worry about it that sort of stuff happens!BTW Congrats on the 2nd place! :D

#3 JFarrell20

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 04:10 PM

You say he raised to 5 times the BB in early position.... to me this smells a bit funny. If he had AA AK OR KK, I don't think he would raise 5 times the BB, but maybe. I'd guess he'd double or triple it. However, he could bump it up 5 times just b/c he's in early pos. and doesn't want anyone but the blinds to call... hard to say.Now if the flop comes all low cards like you say and he makes a pot sized bet, I'd probably put him on either QQ or KK, I wouldn't suspect that big a bet with just Jacks. And if he had AA and it was down to heads up, this is where he'd slowplay (not make a pot-sized bet). Yeah, I'd definitely put him on QQ (same as you, I know it's a long shot but could happen), or KK. This is a tough call. I would probably lay it down this early in the tournament just b/c it's awfully hard to cripple your stack early on and come back. I would lay it down b/c I'm putting him on two hands QQ or KK and one of which we'll split, but one of which you are a dog to. Yes, it sucks, but lay it down. You're not just playing your hand strength, you are playing your hands' strength in relation to the opponent. So he shows you Jacks... oh well. Remember that. And it's OK that he showed you jacks, because he represented Q's or better...

#4 CoranMoran

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 07:08 AM

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I get dealt QQ
Playing Queens can be difficult. You can make or lose a lot of money with these cards. But I believe in being aggressive with them until someone convinces you that they have K's or A's .

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I'm in the big blind, and first to act raises to 85, about 5 times the blind, everyone fold to the button who calls. I decided to take the flop      
I would have raised in this position for several reasons:1) You are last to act so you know that no more players will be able to enter the pot.2) You can gain more information on your opponents' hands by seeing how they react to your raise. If the aggressive player on the button goes all-in, you will feel comfortable calling. And if the first bettor goes all-in, you can probably put him on aces.3) You are getting a chance to win the pot right there. Your re-raise against two opponents is advertising the strength of your hand. So if your opponents aren't sitting on a high pair, they may fold immediately.4) You are building a pot that you can pounce on if the flop falls safely.

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Flop is 8 6 2, rainbow
Perfect. This flop looks safe. Now if your opponents have hands such as AK or AQ, you should be able to take down this pot right now.

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I check/semi trap to see where I'm at
As you have pointed out, Qeens aren't very strong if there is an Ace or King on the board. But Queens ARE very strong when there is NOT and Ace or Queen on the board. It is very important to protect yourself from these cards. In my opinion, leading the hand with a strong bet right now is essential so that your opponents do not get a free card to draw out on you. If they fold or come over the top of you, at least you have a better grasp of what they have.

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Original raiser bets 250(the pot),
Now this raise tells me that he probably does not have pocket Aces. With a rainbow board, Aces would still be safe and he should be trying to slowly milk more out of you. But this bet feels like HE is trying to protect his hand. Immediately, I would be sensing Jacks, Queens or Kings. Tens and A-8 seem much less likely.But because he has not had to respond to your bets, you do not have enough information to narrow it down much further.

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I just get a feeling in my guts that he has KK or AA
I don't blame you for being a little worried.But I would be hard pressed to fold my Queens in this position. With the knowledge that I could be beat, I would continue to play this hand with my chin up. And if I got knocked out of the tourney, at least I went out playing good cards.So my overall advice when playing Queens is to be aggressive and make someone force you out of the hand.--cnm

#5 tekn0wledg

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 09:16 AM

Once the flop comes and the player bet out, I would have raised him just to see where you stand. If he has AA or KK he will re-raise you and you can dump the hand. If he does not, he'll most likely call [or fold, woohoo!] and check to you on the turn. Now you own the hand and can take control and potentially win the pot right there if no scare cards come out. More often than not, he'll call you down to the river and show you a losing hand. If he acts more aggressively in response he might be an aggressive player, or have KK or AA or perhaps trips. So adjust accordingly.I get myself into trouble with QQ all the time too. The other day I was sitting pretty in a tournament with about 9k in chips and the average stack at 4k. I had QQ and raised pre-flop only to be re-raised all-in by a player with 6k in chips. He had been bluffing all day so I wanted to call him down here and get some more chips, unfortunately for me he had AA.... argh. Down to 2k and then I busted out soon after. :evil:

#6 wrto4556

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 10:20 AM

Betting or raising the flop is a good idea. However, an aggressive opponent might move all in with JJ (it's an over-pair that he figures good.). Raising before the flop is a good idea, if he moves all in, you should feel comfortable calling. Your play just seems to passive....You merely call his pre-flop bet with the third best starting hand in Texas Hold'em, then you check fold on a great flop. He was in control the whole time, and that's why you laid down a better hand. If you take control of pots you have a psycological edge on your opponents; when they take control from you then, it's obvious they have a monster. Take control of more pots, be aggressive. I got busted out of a tournament with QQ the other day, and the way I played it I could have won first. I was at the final table with about average chips: T150,000. I've been aggressive the whole way and made GREAT lay downs, my stats for winning at showdown were %100 coming into the final table. 8) I was playing great, until....QQ!!I raise from UTG, about 5xbb, I don't care if noone calls, they gonna have to pay to draw out on me. Guy to my immediate left calls. And me and him take the pot head-up. Flop comes down rags, 2c2h3s or something like that. I bet just above the size of the pot, wanting to win it right there. He raises me, and I "playing smart" move all in. He calls way too quick and shows pocket threes, giving him a full house. I got knocked out in 6th place. But, had I played that differently, I think I could have made one more good laydown and recooped to make inot the top 3. Maybe a simple call on the flop would have worked. I had been the aggressor in every pot I was in...and he showed strength! Most players would have been too timid with a flop like that against a tight/aggressive opponent, he obviously had a hand and was letting me know. I chose to ignore it and hit the raiil with a small payout concidering 1st-3rd.
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#7 mk

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 10:42 PM

I recently played a big multi-table on Party (those are great fun). We were close to the money, blinds were 500/250 and i raised to 1500 from mid/late position with QQ. One of the blinds (a loose/aggressive player who had me covered) calls up and we see a flop. At this point I figure my opponent for AK, AQ or even something weaker as AA or KK would certainly warrant a re-raise. Flop comes rags and I go all in (roughly the size of the pot) thinking I'll take the pot down right there or double up. He calls with 55; he flopped a set.Moral of the story: if you think your opponent is capable of playing a weak pocket pair for a decent pre-flop raise, be very cautious when protecting. I definitely shouldn't have put all my chips at risk like that. Lesson learned!

#8 CoranMoran

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 10:53 AM

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I recently played a big multi-table on Party (those are great fun).  We were close to the money, blinds were 500/250 and i raised to 1500 from mid/late position with QQ.  One of the blinds (a loose/aggressive player who had me covered) calls up and we see a flop.  At this point I figure my opponent for AK, AQ or even something weaker as AA or KK would certainly warrant a re-raise.  Flop comes rags and I go all in (roughly the size of the pot) thinking I'll take the pot down right there or double up.  He calls with 55; he flopped a set.
Because you had position on your opponent in this hand, it makes it a little easier to obtain information.Since your opponent is loose, it is difficult to put him on a specific hand before the flop. But we can get more information out of him after the flop.It seemed safe to assume that you held the best hand after that ragged flop. So being aggressive and leading with a bet is the right way to go.If your opponent missed the flop, then it would not be profitable for him to chase, so any bet would likely win you the pot. (Thus if he had AK like you suggested, a standard bet should knock him out)However, if your opponent check-calls or raises in this situation, then it is clear that he probably hit the flop and is slowplaying a big hand. You now have the information that you were looking for and can proceed accordingly. With your position, he will have to bet first after the turn so you may be able to gain even more information without spending any more money.The key point is that any decent size bet after the ragged flop will likely win you this pot if your opponent has not made a hand. He will probably only continue playing if he has you beat. Because of this fact, there is little reason to gamble all of your chips at this time. A standard bet will win you the cash when you have the best hand, and it will lose less if you don't.Be aggressive, but not reckless!--cnm

#9 mk

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 07:04 PM

I completely agree with everything you said, and I will certainly play it that way in the future. Gotta learn from your mistakes. It was one of those bone-headed plays that makes your head steam for a day or two, but then again, I can guarantee I won't make a similar mistake again. Experience is so huge in this game.




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