flush draw too passive? (1/2)

[thecamelot 0]

On the flop I went for a check/raise with the bettor on my left, thought I could get some extra value from the field (didn't want to face the rest with 2 bets cold). So, I called instead... Then I got confused for the rest of the hand... Afraid to bet the turn with the aggression behind me.River should be obvious... (I think??) :shock: one of those days for me...Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: thecamelot is UTG+1 with K:spade:, T:spade:. 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, thecamelot calls.Flop: (10 SB) 6:spade:, 6:heart:, J:spade: (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, thecamelot checks, MP1 bets, SB folds, BB calls, thecamelot calls, MP1 calls.Turn: (9 BB) 2:heart: (4 players)BB checks, thecamelot checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, BB calls, thecamelot calls, MP1 folds.River: (12 BB) 7:spade: (3 players)BB checks, thecamelot bets, Button calls, BB calls.Final Pot: 15 BB

[Actuary 3]

3-bet the floprest is great.

[Guest Zach6668]

3-bet the floprest is great.

Would that be because of all the cold-callers here? We want to build a bigger pot?

[Guest Zach6668]

Also, would you be tempted to c/r the river? I think the button is going to bet out here quite often with his 6? Or is the boat potential too much for that?What do we do if the button raises our river bet? Clearly, folding is out of the question, but would we be 3-betting this river?

[thecamelot 0]

Also, would you be tempted to c/r the river? I think the button is going to bet out here quite often with his 6? Or is the boat potential too much for that?What do we do if the button raises our river bet? Clearly, folding is out of the question, but would we be 3-betting this river?

I thought about a c/r but worried that it'd get checked behind and I'd miss value. Good question about the 3-bet on the river. I'd say it depends on what BB does after Button raises, but I'm lost in these situations.

[Guest Zach6668]

Also, would you be tempted to c/r the river? I think the button is going to bet out here quite often with his 6? Or is the boat potential too much for that?What do we do if the button raises our river bet? Clearly, folding is out of the question, but would we be 3-betting this river?

I thought about a c/r but worried that it'd get checked behind and I'd miss value. Good question about the 3-bet on the river. I'd say it depends on what BB does after Button raises, but I'm lost in these situations.

Yeah, I'm exactly the same. I'm so lost in situations like this. I need to reread SSHE about 1000 times and read every post on this board before I'll have a semblance of an idea on what to do.

[Actuary 3]

with 3 others in the pot we have an equity edge and would like it to be capped with 4 in the pot. If, by 3-betting, and say Button caps and BB decides it's gonna cost to much to see if his pocket 7's pair up and he folds, that's good too. Anyone folding a K would be nice since our kicker wouldn't play anymore.We do have to dicsount some for the possiblity of a boat draw against us; however, I imagine we still have plenty of reason to 3-bet for equity.I tend to always lead rivers like this. The flush draw is a pretty obvious one and Button will too often check behind here with hands we beat. Along those same lines, if we are raised, I'm just callling.

[Actuary 3]

re:ActuaryI imagine many others would 3-bet a Button raise here.Especially if BB was still coming along.I could see that..I just give my opponents too much credit, that they wouldn't overplay trip 6's, or thinking I was bluffing.

[Mattnxtc 0]

i think that 3 betting the flop is a bit much...u want to keep as many people in this hand to keep ur equity up. The worst thing that could happen is that you 3 bet and mp1 folds this flop. With him and the bb in the hand ur gonna hit the flush 33% and ur only payin 25% so this is very goodriver i like leading...u dont want to have it checked through

[screech 0]

i think that 3 betting the flop is a bit much...u want to keep as many people in this hand to keep ur equity up. The worst thing that could happen is that you 3 bet and mp1 folds this flop. With him and the bb in the hand ur gonna hit the flush 33% and ur only payin 25% so this is very good

Knocking MP1 out is not the worst thing that can happen. If he folds, we may buy king outs, in which case we may now have 11 outs, so our equity is 41%.I know, I know, what if button has a six. Well this is unlikely for 2 reasons:1) There are not many hands he's cold calling with on the button that contain a six2) A lot of players would try to slowplay here with trips, not raise.Buttons most likely hand is a pair of jacks. Another thing to look at is that MP1 may not fold. In this case, we make even more by 3-betting than if we just called. How much more? Well we are 35% to hit our flush, and we are putting in 25% of the money. That means we make 10% on every bet that goes in. If 3 extra bets go in, we make an extra 0.3sb by 3-betting. It may not seem like much, but the more edges like this we push, the more our hourly rate increases.So how much do we lose if we 3-bet and MP1 folds? Let's assume that by folding MP1, we now increase our from 35% to 40%. If we call, 8sb go in on the flop. 0.35 x 8 = 2.8 - 2 = 0.8sb.If we 3-bet, 10sb go in on the flop. 0.4 x 10 = 4 - 3 = 1sb.So if our raise knocks out sb, and this causes our equity to increase, we actually make more money by 3-betting.If our equity doesn't increase (someone has a 6), then our 3-bet costs:0.35 x 10 = 3.5 - 3 = 0.5sb.0.8 - 0.5 = 0.3sb.So in the worst case scenario our 3-bet costs us 0.3sb. Usually however, knocking out sb will increase our equity/sb will come along anyway, and our equity would increase.

[akishore 0]

Knocking MP1 out is not the worst thing that can happen. If he folds, we may buy king outs, in which case we may now have 11 outs, so our equity is 41%.I know, I know, what if button has a six. Well this is unlikely for 2 reasons:1) There are not many hands he's cold calling with on the button that contain a six2) A lot of players would try to slowplay here with trips, not raise.Buttons most likely hand is a pair of jacks. Another thing to look at is that MP1 may not fold. In this case, we make even more by 3-betting than if we just called. How much more? [incoherent mathematical rambling]So in the worst case scenario our 3-bet costs us 0.3sb. Usually however, knocking out sb will increase our equity/sb will come along anyway, and our equity would increase.

word, screech.raise it up, bay-bee!aseem

[Actuary 3]

damn!Screech just took my advice and made up some numbersI want some mad props!( sorry, I'm a flake)

[akishore 0]

damn!Screech just took my advice and made up some numbersI want some mad props!( sorry, I'm a flake)

they weren't props. mostly, i just wanted to replace all his numbers with the words "incoherent mathematical rambling".aseem

[screech 0]

they weren't props. mostly, i just wanted to replace all his numbers with the words "incoherent mathematical rambling".

No better way to make people lose interest and just concede an arguement than by introducing a few math equations. If anyone ever checked my calculations, they'd find out what a fraud I really am.