12 replies to this topic

[Bonobio]

PokerStars Game #1193050937: Tournament #5221405, Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2005/02/09 - 20:19:42 (ET)Table '5221405 1' Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: gene3ee (2175 in chips) Seat 3: LizzyBobio (3048 in chips) Seat 4: Maytag (2502 in chips) Seat 6: PIG_#_1 (2910 in chips) Seat 7: Taz Jazz (2525 in chips) Seat 8: SantaChris (340 in chips) gene3ee: posts small blind 100LizzyBobio: posts big blind 200*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to LizzyBobio [8d 9d]Maytag: folds PIG_#_1: folds Taz Jazz: folds SantaChris: folds gene3ee said, "whut up red"gene3ee: raises 600 to 800LizzyBobio: calls 600*** FLOP *** [Ad 8c 3d]gene3ee: bets 1375 and is all-inLizzyBobio: calls 1375*** TURN *** [Ad 8c 3d] [4s]mraiders [observer] said, "not much you going tonight"*** RIVER *** [Ad 8c 3d 4s] [Ah]*** SHOW DOWN ***gene3ee: shows [Jh Ac] (three of a kind, Aces)LizzyBobio: shows [8d 9d] (two pair, Aces and Eights)gene3ee collected 4350 from pot6 handed, mid pair with flush draw. I lost yes, but was berated for "keep callin on draws" which I don't agree with.

[wrto4556]

Bad call pre-flop, bad call on the flop. Wow, man. At the risk of sounding rude, you deserved to lose all those chips.

[akishore]

wrto4556 said:

Bad call pre-flop, bad call on the flop. Wow, man. At the risk of sounding rude, you deserved to lose all those chips.

i disagree.in NL, suited connectors have strong value because of implied odds. it was a totally fine call pre-flop to a raise. if you can play them well post-flop, any suited hands and any connecting hands (less so than suited hands) are great pre-flop hands, especially to a raise, because if you hit trips or two pair, you can break the other guy easily when he bets into you. otherwise, you lay them down. that's how doyle busted two players in the same hand at his first wsop (played 68s to KK and KQ to a raise pre-flop, flopped trips, and set a great trap).as for the post-flop all-in call, it wasn't bad at all. just so you know, you were a 51.1% favorite to win the hand, so in reality it was a coin flip. the only mistake, per se, was gambling off your stack when you were a coin flip. in reality, however, i would have probably called as well on the read that my opponent missed the flop, here's why:he massively over-bets the pot all-in on the flop. either he didn't hit and he's a fish, or he hit the ace. nothing else in my book. set, two pair, he would be playing trap-trap by betting small or check-raising, etc. unless the particular read of this player told you that he only went all-in way over the pot size if he had a super hand (which really makes no sense at all), it was an easy read that he had a vulnerable hand. this is a standard fish play.so considering this was a tournament, the only real mistake was gambling off your stack on a coin flip, as i said. but as i also said, i might have very well thought that i had the best hand and he missed the flop, so i would have called as well.hope this helps,aseem

[Alcatraz]

I agree with Aseem's post flop analysis. In general his preflop analysis is correct, however he didn't take into account stack size v blind size. In a tournament situation, I'd fold that preflop and wait for a better hand to gamble with.The examples he gave (Doyle's hands) come from a tournament where stack sizes are very large compared to the blind so post flop play is more important. In small buy in tournaments (most online tournaments) blinds are fairly large compared to stack size, which means pre flop play is far more important. You can't afford to leak away a lot of chips by playing medium suited connectors.Post flop I would have called as well, particularly since I might have thought the sb was trying to steal preflop and not given him credit for the ace. He overbet the flop (not neccesarily a bad play with 2 diamonds on board) and you have a lot of outs even if you're wrong.

[Metro]

First off, I probably wouldn't have played the hand. I don't like playing a 9 high in a heads up situation, especially not for 1/4 of my stack. If it hits, you're golden, if it doesn't, there goes 1/4 your stack. If the sb had been bullying you the whole tournament, then I might try to call him down here. Otherwise, if this was a rare action, I'd put him on at least a Q high, which already has me behind in the hand.The fact that you call his raise, If I was the small blind, I would probably give you credit for an A, unless, as before, he'd been doing it to you all day, then who knows what you've got. Assuming he hadn't been bullying your blind the whole tournament, I've got you on hitting the Ace when I see it on the flop. That being said, if he's going to push all-in on you, I would have to think he's on the ace, and I'd venture to guess respectable kicker, or that he's 4 to the flush on the flop. Considering you're sitting 4 to the flush, it's unlikely, but not impossible, that's he's on the same draw. Because he pushes the pot, I assume he's worried about the flush draw, which gives me the information that he's probably not on it. Either that, or he's bluffing, but since as I said earlier, I would have you on the Ace from your preflop call, I wouldn't try to bluff with the ace on the board when my tournament life depended on it. In this situation, even though you're marginally a favorite to win the hand, I would probably consider folding. I'm not a big fan of pushing half my stack in against a hand that is already better than mine. i'd much rather force someone else to draw out against me than have to make a hand against someone else. I'm not saying you're wrong to stay in the hand, but personally, i would have gotten out, if I ever entered it in the first place. Play to survive first, and to build a stack second.

[KramitDaToad]

akishore said:

wrto4556 said:

Bad call pre-flop, bad call on the flop. Wow, man. At the risk of sounding rude, you deserved to lose all those chips.

i disagree.in NL, suited connectors have strong value because of implied odds. it was a totally fine call pre-flop to a raise. if you can play them well post-flop, any suited hands and any connecting hands (less so than suited hands) are great pre-flop hands, especially to a raise, because if you hit trips or two pair, you can break the other guy easily when he bets into you. otherwise, you lay them down. that's how doyle busted two players in the same hand at his first wsop (played 68s to KK and KQ to a raise pre-flop, flopped trips, and set a great trap).as for the post-flop all-in call, it wasn't bad at all. just so you know, you were a 51.1% favorite to win the hand, so in reality it was a coin flip. the only mistake, per se, was gambling off your stack when you were a coin flip. in reality, however, i would have probably called as well on the read that my opponent missed the flop, here's why:he massively over-bets the pot all-in on the flop. either he didn't hit and he's a fish, or he hit the ace. nothing else in my book. set, two pair, he would be playing trap-trap by betting small or check-raising, etc. unless the particular read of this player told you that he only went all-in way over the pot size if he had a super hand (which really makes no sense at all), it was an easy read that he had a vulnerable hand. this is a standard fish play.so considering this was a tournament, the only real mistake was gambling off your stack on a coin flip, as i said. but as i also said, i might have very well thought that i had the best hand and he missed the flop, so i would have called as well.hope this helps,aseem

gotta disagree here aseem - wrto & metro are on the moneysuited connectors are good in no-limit for the implied odds as you mentioned, but to make it work you need big implied odds.The raiser was betting more than a third of their stack. Calling off 35+% of your potential profits with a drawing hand is asking for it... and it got handed to him on a plate The most your looking to do here is call a maximum of 5-10% of the smallest stack in the hand, and preferably not be heads up.Also facing a bet of that size is effectively 'all-in or fold time' as the pot will be more than the raisers remaining stack so all his money is going in on the flop regardless. (he didn't 'massively over-bet the pot' there was 1600 in the pot and he bet all-in for 1375...) I don't think you want to go all-in with 89, suited or not.Short-handed NL with large blinds compared to stack size is all about high cards and pairs.However, once you've got to the flop the decision was an easy one - its a call all the way, because as I mentioned before, your opponent is going all in regardless of what he holds.The moral of the story - take a raise of that size as an all-in bet and then ask yourself if you would call preflop...

[akishore]

no!!! you're all wrong!!! i'm the only one who's right!!!kidding, of course. :-) yep, i never noted how big the raise was in relation to the stack size or that the all-in call actually wasn't overbetting the pot.i stand corrected. in this case, it was a bad call pre-flop. with such big blinds, it becomes a game of high card and top pair. but post-flop, given the situation, it was an easy call because you don't fold with 35% of your stack in the pot on a draw that'll hit 1 in 2 times.aseem

[KramitDaToad]

akishore said:

no!!! you're all wrong!!! i'm the only one who's right!!!kidding, of course. :-) aseem

[Bonobio]

wrto4556 said:

Bad call pre-flop, bad call on the flop. Wow, man. At the risk of sounding rude, you deserved to lose all those chips.

I guess what I don't understand is, why is it such a bad call on the flop when I still have the statistical advantage? My original assumption was that he was bullying. Then based on the flop, I thought of the odds of him holding an ace, and my odds of winning the pot if he did or didn't. It seemed good at the time.

[Wilderness]

Bonobio said:

wrto4556 said:

Bad call pre-flop, bad call on the flop. Wow, man. At the risk of sounding rude, you deserved to lose all those chips.

I guess what I don't understand is, why is it such a bad call on the flop when I still have the statistical advantage? My original assumption was that he was bullying. Then based on the flop, I thought of the odds of him holding an ace, and my odds of winning the pot if he did or didn't. It seemed good at the time.

Not a bad call on the flop, although its not a great call either. You are slightly ahead, but its basically a coinflip and I don't see why you need to risk that at this point in the tournament. But if you felt he was bluffing or had been doing this a lot, then by all means go for it. Not a bad call at that point.However, calling pre-flop is just a bad, bad idea. As aseem pointed out, there can be some very profitable situations to call with suited connectors, but not when it costs you a big chunk of your stack to see if you hit anything, because most of the time you won't.

[Alcatraz]

It's not a bad call on the flop. WRTO is outvoted and overruled on this one :DIt was a bad call preflop, however.

[Bonobio]

So overall, drop the hand in the BB because even if I do catch something, what am I going to do with it. I'm basically paying 600 in chips for a chance at a coinflip. Now...assuming that I got to see the flop for free, how would that impact my post flop play? Make a bet, and fold to any re-raise?

[Alcatraz]

Bonobio said:

So overall, drop the hand in the BB because even if I do catch something, what am I going to do with it. I'm basically paying 600 in chips for a chance at a coinflip. Now...assuming that I got to see the flop for free, how would that impact my post flop play? Make a bet, and fold to any re-raise?

If you see it for free and the sb checks, pushing in your stack isn't a bad play. If you do make a smaller bet, folding to a reraise is a bad idea; you've got too many chips comitted to dump a 51% chance at winning, plus it's hard to put anyone on the ace if you weren't raised pre flop.If the SB is out and it's you and 1 or 2 limpers, the same thing is true. It's hard to put them on an Ace and so it's likely you have the best hand. Since they can't put you on an ace either, you might even get called by someone that figures you for a bluff (or called by a flush draw which is fine) Basicaly, once you've seen that flop, there's no good reason for you to fold. Since you're going to call any bet, you're better off being the agressor. Any bet you make is going to commit you to the pot. Seems to me that your best move would be to push all in. You're a favorite against any hand other than 2 pair or a set, and you have outs against those. The big bet might win you the pot right there, and as far as I'm concerned that's the best thing ever.