call this river? raise??

[bdc30 0]

The Q completes basically any draw that was chasing.Is this even worth calling down??Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J:diamond:, J:club:. UTG calls, Hero calls, 5 folds, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: (4 SB) J:heart:, 3:heart:, 5:diamond: (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.Turn: (10 BB) T:diamond: (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.River: (18 BB) Q:club: (4 players)SB checks, BB bets

[GWCGWC 83]

Why didn't you raise from utg+1 preflop?river: I call the 2 BB and if BB caps it, I still call. It sucks but no way am I laying down this set at the river with only the possible straight getting there. Smells more like set vs set vs 2 pair.

[mrdannyg 274]

the river actually completes very few draws. the only thing you are behind now are QQ (no PF raises, so we'll ignore), 9-10, AK and 9K.UTG check-raised the flop, so i think we can eliminate any of those hands, since they had nothing on the flop. maybe an idiot plays AK like that, but if so i think you need to pay him off (because...)BB only called on the flop, which makes him a little scarier, but the only hands he could reasonably have are any of the above 3, suited in hearts. you are beating a helluva lot of hands here and losing to a select few. i think you 3-bet this all day. if you really are scared, call it. given the action, this would be a horrendous fold.danielEDIT: note that if the queen is a heart, this changes things dramatically.

[DCWildcat 0]

That'd be a goofy draw to stay in a capped flop on. I'm ok with a call, though I have a sneaking suspicion BB is 3-betting and showing down a straight.Somewhere, a little puppy died when you didn't raise PF.

[pokerplayer24 0]

That'd be a goofy draw to stay in a capped flop on. I'm ok with a call, though I have a sneaking suspicion BB is 3-betting and showing down a straight.Somewhere, a little puppy died when you didn't raise PF.

Yep, not raising preflop is straight up awful.BB could have easily made a straight with a hand like K9 h or 89h but I think i'm still 3 betting this. Its 3 handed so you only have to be right 33% of the time.If you fold this hand on the river its probly time to quit playing poker.

[bdc30 0]

I have a sneaking suspicion BB is 3-betting and showing down a straight.Somewhere, a little puppy died when you didn't raise PF.

Yep, not raising preflop is straight up awful.If you fold this hand on the river its probly time to quit playing poker.

See, I thought otherwise.The BB in this hand ended up having QQ, and over-setted meon the river. The funny thing about the hand was what UTGended up having... Q 3 for 2 pairs, which meant BB hit the one-outer on me. The reason I posted the hand was that on the river, even thoughI knew I had a powerhouse hand, I just knew the Q was a death card for me. Of course, I called it down, knowing the whole time that I was likely beaten. As for the guy saying I should quit poker if I fold here...That I think is something I need tolearn how do do more often, fold when I know I'm beaten.As for not raising preflop, I see the reasoning for doing so, and usually would do so. As for how the guy in BB didn't raise QQ...

[pokerplayer24 0]

I have a sneaking suspicion BB is 3-betting and showing down a straight.Somewhere, a little puppy died when you didn't raise PF.

Yep, not raising preflop is straight up awful.If you fold this hand on the river its probly time to quit playing poker.

See, I thought otherwise.The BB in this hand ended up having QQ, and over-setted meon the river. The funny thing about the hand was what UTGended up having... Q 3 for 2 pairs, which meant BB hit the one-outer on me. The reason I posted the hand was that on the river, even thoughI knew I had a powerhouse hand, I just knew the Q was a death card for me. Of course, I called it down, knowing the whole time that I was likely beaten. As for the guy saying I should quit poker if I fold here...That I think is something I need tolearn how do do more often, fold when I know I'm beaten.[/b[As for not raising preflop, I see the reasoning for doing so, and usually would do so. As for how the guy in BB didn't raise QQ...

You're getting 12:1. If you don't think you're good8% of the time here you're nuts. With QQ AK K9 and 89 being the only hands that beat you , with Ak, k9 and 89 getting their on a runner straight draw when the flop was cappedDon't be results oriented.

[bdc30 0]

You're getting 12:1. If you don't think you're good8% of the time here you're nuts. With QQ AK K9 and 89 being the only hands that beat you , with Ak, k9 and 89 getting their on a runner straight draw when the flop was cappedDon't be results oriented.

I know, and that's why I called down. Over the long run, I knowit's the right move. I'm not focusing so much on the results of thisone hand, moreso the ones where we call down even thoughwe "know" we're beaten. When I saw the Q come up, I just knewmy set was no good, and could have saved myself 2 BB's.

[Briguy 0]

I hope you have those players buddy listed. Are you sure the holdings weren't the reverse (UTG with QQ and BB with Q3)? Because if those holdings are correct, all I can say is wow.Raise preflop.

[bdc30 0]

I hope you have those players buddy listed. Are you sure the holdings weren't the reverse (UTG with QQ and BB with Q3)? Because if those holdings are correct, all I can say is wow.Raise preflop.

No kidding, eh?? The guy with UTG calling all the waydown with Q3 in a capped pot...Then raising the riverwith his garbage 2 pair?!?!

[screech 0]

Wow. BB played the hand weirder than you did.You should raise pf. Flop and turn are good. You have to at least call this river in this size pot.No one raised pf, so it's unlikely you just got outdrawn by QQ/AK. Not too many K9 or 98 hands are sticking around (unless they had some type of flush draw to go with it.)Does anyone think we have a value raise here? More often than not we're ahead of UTG, and BB is more likely to have made 2 pair than a set of queens/a straight?

[justblaze 0]

Wow. BB played the hand weirder than you did.You should raise pf. Flop and turn are good. You have to at least call this river in this size pot.No one raised pf, so it's unlikely you just got outdrawn by QQ/AK. Not too many K9 or 98 hands are sticking around (unless they had some type of flush draw to go with it.)Does anyone think we have a value raise here? More often than not we're ahead of UTG, and BB is more likely to have made 2 pair than a set of queens/a straight?

im overcalling here, and the limp PF is pretty bad.

[bdc30 0]

As bad as my limp was PF (which I don't think wasas terrible as it's being made out to be from EP), thatonly makes BB's limp with QQ worse doesn't it?

[Canada 0]

As bad as my limp was PF (which I don't think wasas terrible as it's being made out to be from EP)

To put it mildly, Father Xmas will not be visiting you this year. Given that if the UTG raised you should be 3-betting, not raising a limp here would get you arrested in some countries.Against a loose UTG I'm raising down to 88 at least here.

that only makes BB's limp with QQ worse doesn't it?

In his mind he can't thin the field, which doesn't come close to justifying checking the Queens, but at least he has a reason for doing it.Both plays are horrible

[akishore 0]

haven't read replies.limping preflop is fairly awful.i think a fold on this river is just as awful, but so is a three-bet once BB wakes up.cold-call and cold-call again if you need to. YTG prlly flopped a set, and really, BB will have just a pair of queens or two pair or something here often enough.aseem

[akishore 0]

you are abso-****ing-lutely out of your mind, OR you are on a terrible downswing, if you think you can even come CLOSE to "knowing" you are beat when that Q comes. you can see QQ coming??? bull-****ing-shit. slap yourself and move on and don't let yourself become a weak/tight mouse. :-) aseem

[mrdannyg 274]

You're getting 12:1. If you don't think you're good8% of the time here you're nuts. With QQ AK K9 and 89 being the only hands that beat you , with Ak, k9 and 89 getting their on a runner straight draw when the flop was cappedDon't be results oriented.

I know, and that's why I called down. Over the long run, I knowit's the right move. I'm not focusing so much on the results of thisone hand, moreso the ones where we call down even thoughwe "know" we're beaten. When I saw the Q come up, I just knewmy set was no good, and could have saved myself 2 BB's.

aseem pretty much said it already but i'll repeat.laying down hands when you "know" you are beat is very important and will significantly improve your win rate. laying down big hands because you had the nuts until the river and the river put out potential outdraws that are very unlikely is terrible.in this situation there are far too few hands that beat you, and almost no legitimate hands (except for the heart draws that backdoored their straight) that could be ahead. i think not 3-betting here is a leak frankly.but the important part is to look at the play of the hand as opposed to just theboard at the river. with the information you have, there is no way for you to nearly enough information for you to fold here.good luck,daniel

[GWCGWC 83]

Why didn't you raise from utg+1 preflop?river: I call the 2 BB and if BB caps it, I still call. It sucks but no way am I laying down this set at the river with only the possible straight getting there. Smells more like set vs set vs 2 pair.

I just wanted to point out my read here. I am so great!I am so great!I am so great!I am so great!I am so great!I am so great!I am so great!I am so great!I am so great!I have to point out that I am having trouble beating the 1/2 SH LHE for more than 1BB/100, and 2/4 SH LHE is killing me.I am not so great.I am learning the shorthanded game, and reading the strat section has helped me go from break even to barely winning. At the two levels above.Note: I am beating/killing the .50/1 SH LHE game. 6.58 BB/100 over 14k hands.