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Raising on the "come"


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#1 pat_s_lee

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 08:44 AM

Hi all,When you have 2 suited cards and the flop comes with 2 cards of the same suit, a fairly normal play is to bet-on-the-come. It's a semi-bluff in which you can either take down the pot before actually making a hand, or build up a pot in anticipation of hitting your hand on the turn or river.How you play it out after the flop is up to the individual. If your flush hits on the turn, I like the play of checking it (to pretend you're concerned about top pair and afraid of the flush) and raising it when somebody does bet. If your flush misses completely, you can bet large to bluff (and represent top pair).I've been watching a few WPT episodes lately, and there's one thing that puzzles me. Let's say it's BB, player #3 and player #4 playing. Player #3 holds the suited connector.Flop comes and BB hits top pair, player #3 hits the flush draw (4 hearts), player #4 has a small pocket pair that misses.BB comes out firing. Player #3 with the draw hand calls. The one comment I hear from Van Patten often is "most players would raise in this situation".I'm trying to understand what the raise would do. In this situation:-> It might discourage player #4 from chasing his/her set, and hence isolate between BB and player #3.-> It might alert BB that player #3 has a big hand and to be cautious of his/her next move.I'm not sure if I agree with raising on the come (and would like to understand why it's a good idea). If player #3 raises it, scares off player #4, it invites another move from BB. BB can either fold, call, or perhaps the best play is to come over the top. If BB does come over the top, it puts player #3 into quite a dilemna. The semi-bluff raise has failed and now player #3 has to decide whether or not to pursue this course of action.If player #3 had just smooth-called off the flop, it would have: a) potentially build up the pot in case the flush did hit B) possibly allow for player #4 to come in (so that BB might worry that there are now 2 chasers instead of 1) c) possibly not allow for another re-raise from BB until the next card shows d) allow player #3 to assess what player #4 might havePersonally, I think "raising" on the come may be a decent play if: i) The player is last to act and has seen all the action before hand. ii) If it's in a heads up situation.What do you guys think?...Pat

#2 tekn0wledg

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 09:29 AM

There are a couple of reasons for raising in this situation.1) you could possibly win the pot right there2) you are getting more money in the pot which gives you the odds to call on the turn if necessary3) you are putting some pressure on the people to act behind you, and in some cases you are looking to get them out of the hand to increase your chances of winning the pot4) you may also raise here to get a free card on the turn [you raise and on the turn someone checks to you, you check too in order to see a free card]I like to mix this play up personally. I see alot of players raise all the time with a four flush or four cards to a straight and I can easily put them on a hand. the problem occurs when a scare card comes after that. You can potentially re-raise here and try to let them know you aren't messing around, but you could hurt yourself if they do hit the hand.To comment on your 'heads up situation' comment, I don't tend to play suited connectors and such in heads up situations unless it's a tournament or I am just looking to mix things up. Reason being, I need the pot odds to call a bet on the flop and turn and with few players in the pot it's not a +EV play to do so.

#3 CoranMoran

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 09:53 AM

My inclination would be to call the bet to encourage the final player to join the pot. With 3 players involved, this would increase the chances of a larger pot if the flush hits. And it will eliminate the chances for the initial bettor to charge you more at this time for playing your draw.Raising the pot will likely knock out the third player. But it may also buy you a free card on the turn. Since you represented a big hand after the flop and you have position on the big blind, he will often check to you on the turn to see how you will play. If you miss your flush, you can bluff at the pot or you can see the river for free.I believe that raising in this situation decreases the potential pot size butincreases your chances of winning it.Different strategies for different styles of play. --cnm

#4 FrankB

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 04:33 PM

Every play has it's different intricacies, raising on a come hand not only works as a semi-bluff, but can also get you a free card if you miss. A raise in the right place really puts the pressure on the other players who may have missed the flop. Not only does it show strength on your part, it is more difficult to read, sometimes simply calling "screams" flush/straight draw and when the card does hit you won't get any action. Everyone will simply fold to you. If you raise you are more likely to get called by top pair with a good kicker or a set.P.S.~ Vince Van Patten hasn't exactly won any big tourney's lately. He knows about as much about poker as Dennis Miller did football. :wink:

#5 JaysonWeber

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 04:13 AM

this play is an advance move, its extremely situational really if you think about. You have to do this being extremely confident that player three isn't holding a case hand, and player one isn't going to re-raise you. If the first player is holding top pair with a high kicker, and he really thinks he has the hand won at this point, he's liable to set you all-in. This is situational as it gets in my opinion, I really like this thread... I thought about this for about 5 minutes because it really is a hard decision.
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#6 tekn0wledg

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 04:46 AM

Yes it is a hard decision. Per the usual there are other factors which affect this play including your opponents betting tendancies [i.e. his aggressiveness] and your read on what his hand is. If he raised pre-flop it's unlikely that he hit a come hand when the board shows 8-7-6, though it's possible that he might have an overpair or trips. So as Jayson said, you really need to know the situation well and decide if it's worth risking all of your money.

#7 jayistheman

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 07:23 AM

i like raising here. you can take the lead from the original bettor... we all know how important this is.. especially if you make your flush. you can continue betting into him with less suspicion. also it can help to get a free river... it is hard to have proper pot odds to draw past the turn.you will often take the pot right down there as well... the one major problem ive ever had in this spot is when the original bettor has a better flush draw... that can get ugly.

#8 tekn0wledg

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 09:11 AM

This is especially true in NL games....

#9 EgyptianMagician

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 02:06 PM

jayistheman said:

i like raising here.  you can take the lead from the original bettor... we all know how important this is..  especially if you make your flush.  you can continue betting into him with less suspicion.  also it can help to get a free river... it is hard to have proper pot odds to draw past the turn.you will often take the pot right down there as well... the one major problem ive ever had in this spot is when the original bettor has a better flush draw... that can get ugly.
Raising on the flop shows a lot of weakness though.. the best hand someone will have when they raise you on the flop is top pair... and if they have top pair beat or TPTK or something they're gonna reraise you if they read into it enough.
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#10 copernicus

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 12:08 AM

tekn0wledg said:

2) you are getting more money in the pot which gives you the odds to call on the turn if necessary.
Ouch. I have seen this "reason" as justification for different plays, and it couldnt be more wrong. Since, as the original post points out, a raise may very well limit the field, a substantial part of the pot that gives you "odds to call" on a later street is your own money, which is a fallacy that should be obvious.

#11 jayistheman

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 06:33 AM

EgyptianMagician said:

Raising on the flop shows a lot of weakness though.. the best hand someone will have when they raise you on the flop is top pair... and if they have top pair beat or TPTK or something they're gonna reraise you if they read into it enough.
when there is a flush draw on the flop, i will raise with alot better thatn top pair. im not much of a trapper, so maybe thats just me. but in my usual games, top 2 pair and even a set will raise on the flop when a draw is out.

#12 JTPHS

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 03:21 PM

I haven't read anything here but the initial post so i apologize if i overlap, but i'm just gonna get right to it. In this situation it is a good play. If the player hits his flush, he wants the other player with small pp in the hand if possible to increase the pot if he does hit. Also, a raise into the best, and fairly strong hand at this point depending on the flop, is dangerous as he can just come back over the top if he reads your draw (and these guys are good). The idea of calling here is busting a big hand and picking up a big pot. Now, if you're against an aggressive player who would be the flop almost no matter what and you can put them on say A high or something a raise here would be good to take the pot because small pp with fold almost no doubt, assuming you read the correctly and A high with probably fold being close to or probably THE underdog. Read Daniel's article on the Plaza with his hand against Annie Duke (he has suited connectors in position and comes over the top of her A high after a draw flop for daniel and nothing for Annie) When i watched this I was amazed with his read on the hand and even more amazed when i'd read the article. He executed the hand perfectly and also said that if he had put her on an over pair he would call in hopes to bust. Easy enough for me to make the play seeing both hands, great read, instincts and play by daniel.
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#13 TylerBeal

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 02:38 AM

First off I have to say i thought about it for a while. But I like the raise here. Raising here does a few things. It lets the original bettor know that you have a strong hand. (I'd say 2 pair if I was original bettor). It shows seat 3 that not only does he have to deal with a raise and a re-raise but if he calls he may also have to deal with another re-raise or cap (limit). So this raise pays for your information on player #3 and sends #1 into a "what the heck does he have" train of thought. If player #3 comes out and re-raises #1 probably folds and you are heads up with probably 2 pair or a set. So this raise works well quite a few ways.




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