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loose low limit cash games


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#1 Razor

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 09:08 AM

I'm looking for some advice on playing low-limit cash games. I've read SSHE and try to apply their methodology, but it doesn't seem to be working. Maybe I'm making mistakes, I'm not sure. Obviously these games are very loose, with 7/8 players seeing the flop and generally 4 or more still in at the river, with capped betting on every street not uncommon. In these situations, I'm usually getting the correct odds to call on my OESD or Flush Draws, and sometimes I'm even getting the right odds to call w/ two pair to hit the boat. What tends to happen however is that if I don't hit these draws, I end up losing my stack and either having to reload (which I hate doing) or walk away. I know I should take a different outlook and stay in the game if it's a good table, or get out if the compeition is too tough, but I have a hard time putting more money down w/ the fear of losing even more. Basically, if I take a few bad-beats right off the bat, I'm outta there, leaving a loser. Does anybody have any advice on how I should play these games, and how I can better prepare myself to re-load if I know the table is super weak??? ... Any similar experiences or advice would be greatly appreciated.

#2 Canada

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 09:21 AM

Razor said:

What tends to happen however is that if I don't hit these draws, I end up losing my stack and either having to reload
I'm confused - you're playing limit, how does chasing a draw cost you your stack?

Razor said:

I have a hard time putting more money down w/ the fear of losing even more.
You can't play with scared money.Are you practicing good BR management?If you are (as well as understanding the principles) and you still have these fears, you will never be a winning player.If you aren't and are playing outside a good recommended BR you drastically increasing the chances of going broke.It might be a misinterpretation of your post, but it sounds like 'serious' poker might not be for you.Everyone loses buyins - you have to be able to shrug it off

#3 HCarl

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 09:28 AM

If you feel like you're not making any wrong decisions but still losing your buy in, something is going wrong. It sounds like you aren't buying in for enough chips. If the table is really loose, as described, with capping on most streets you have to really tighten up your game and assume that you'll win huge pots when you have a monster hand. However, even with a tight strategy, you might burn through your buy in if you don't start with enough chips.If each hand costs about 8 big bets, you have to be able to have at least 50 big bets when you sit down. This, combined with a tight strategy, will allow you to handle the fluctuations of such a loose talbe. If you can't afford to sit down with that much money, you should step down a limit.

#4 Razor

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 09:28 AM

Canada said:

Razor said:

What tends to happen however is that if I don't hit these draws, I end up losing my stack and either having to reload
I'm confused - you're playing limit, how does chasing a draw cost you your stack?

Razor said:

I have a hard time putting more money down w/ the fear of losing even more.
You can't play with scared money.Are you practicing good BR management?If you are (as well as understanding the principles) and you still have these fears, you will never be a winning player.If you aren't and are playing outside a good recommended BR you drastically increasing the chances of going broke.It might be a misinterpretation of your post, but it sounds like 'serious' poker might not be for you.Everyone loses buyins - you have to be able to shrug it off
It's not one missed draw, it's when I flop 6 or 7 draws, and with 5 players calling the 3 or 4 bet in front of me, the pot is giving me odds to call this bet. When I miss every draw, It tends to really eat away at my stack.As far as serious poker goes, I'm not quitting my day job anytime soon, but I really enjoy the game, and when I play, I want to win. I would like to be able to develop my skills enough to where I can support my income w/ poker. I don't want to play "just for fun". But right now, poker is a learning cycle for me. I'm improving, but not consistently winning. More so breaking even. I don't have a set poker bankroll, I make a living at another career and I know how much of that money I can afford to play with. Perhaps I should take some time off and save up a bankroll. And just play with that ... perhaps it will help with how I view the money I am playing with.any thoughts?

#5 HCarl

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 09:56 AM

It sounds to me that you're probably playing too many hands. In extremely loose games you shouldn't bother seeing flops with suited connectors, low pairs, or hands like k-q. I know it sucks to fold a lot, especially when you're playing for fun, but those hands will likely get you in trouble and make it so you have to leave early.One other thing to consider in loose low limit games is that you will get called down no matter what. Even if you haven't played a hand all night you will most likely get no respect for your raise, so you don't have to worry about playing too few hands.I like the idea of saving up money for poker and keeping it separate. In the loose games you're playing you'll likely lose your buy-in or win a ton, so if you keep the money separate you don't worry about the days when things don't go your way.

#6 jefrock21

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 10:02 AM

I think you need to be a more selective chaser. 1. Do the players that are capping out usually have anything?2. If I catch my card to get my flush or straight draw are their bigger staright or flush draw possibilities out there.....nothing worse then catching your card and someone having bigger staright or flush.3. As was said earlier.....when you think negative bad things happen.4. Tighten up a little bit and drill some of the chasers when you DO have the nuts. This might slow them down a little bit when you are in the pots.5. You may need to bump up a level to get away form the insane play but make sure it is something your bankroll can handle.
You can't win a tournament in the 1st hour, but you sure can lose one in it.

#7 pokerplayer24

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 10:14 AM

[quote]It sounds to me that you're probably playing too many hands. In extremely loose games you shouldn't bother seeing flops with suited connectors, low pairs, or hands like k-q. I know it sucks to fold a lot, especially when you're playing for fun, but those hands will likely get you in trouble and make it so you have to leave early. [/quote]awful advice. Suited connectors and pairs go way up in value when a lot of people are seeing the flop and you have a huge equity advantage with hands like KQ.Dont play stuff like weak aces, or hands like k9, but in a real loose game I am playing every pp and most suited connectors.[/quote]

#8 HCarl

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 10:21 AM

[quote name='pokerplayer24][quote]It sounds to me that you're probably playing too many hands. In extremely loose games you shouldn't bother seeing flops with suited connectors' date=' low pairs, or hands like k-q. I know it sucks to fold a lot, especially when you're playing for fun, but those hands will likely get you in trouble and make it so you have to leave early. [/quote']awful advice. Suited connectors and pairs go way up in value when a lot of people are seeing the flop and you have a huge equity advantage with hands like KQ.Dont play stuff like weak aces, or hands like k9, but in a real loose game I am playing every pp and most suited connectors.[/quote][/quote]But the point is that the bankroll doesn't support chasing draws that aren't to the nuts. I agree that the odds say that you'll win in the long run with those hands, if you don't have enough money to play for the long run it's irrelevant. Therefore, if you're going to draw you should draw to the nuts. Right??

#9 pokerplayer24

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 10:54 AM

If you don't have the BR to see a flop with a pp or chase a flush draw or OESD then you shouldn't be playing that limit. If you're going to win in the long run making a certain move you should be making it. Thats why you are supposed to have a 300 bb br.

#10 Canada

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 11:38 AM

Razor said:

Canada said:

Razor said:

What tends to happen however is that if I don't hit these draws, I end up losing my stack and either having to reload
I'm confused - you're playing limit, how does chasing a draw cost you your stack?

Razor said:

I have a hard time putting more money down w/ the fear of losing even more.
You can't play with scared money.Are you practicing good BR management?If you are (as well as understanding the principles) and you still have these fears, you will never be a winning player.If you aren't and are playing outside a good recommended BR you drastically increasing the chances of going broke.It might be a misinterpretation of your post, but it sounds like 'serious' poker might not be for you.Everyone loses buyins - you have to be able to shrug it off
It's not one missed draw, it's when I flop 6 or 7 draws, and with 5 players calling the 3 or 4 bet in front of me, the pot is giving me odds to call this bet. When I miss every draw, It tends to really eat away at my stack.As far as serious poker goes, I'm not quitting my day job anytime soon, but I really enjoy the game, and when I play, I want to win. I would like to be able to develop my skills enough to where I can support my income w/ poker. I don't want to play "just for fun". But right now, poker is a learning cycle for me. I'm improving, but not consistently winning. More so breaking even. I don't have a set poker bankroll, I make a living at another career and I know how much of that money I can afford to play with. Perhaps I should take some time off and save up a bankroll. And just play with that ... perhaps it will help with how I view the money I am playing with.any thoughts?
Fair enough.Get a bankroll - absolute must; 300BB at leastKeep reading SSHE and study your ass offPost & read in the strat section - ignore any strat related advice in GeneralAsk questions here.Ignore that stuff about suited connectors and low pairs - they are a gold mine in loose games; you have to play them.Get used to variance.Always rebuy at soft tables

#11 Actuary

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 12:48 PM

some really awful and really good advice on here.As always figuring out which is right is he key!pokerplayer and Canada won't ever steer you wrong.SSHE is good.Loose tables lend themselves to a lot more variance.Buy in is meaningless. Just have 12BB's before the hand startsHave 300BB+ or even more if it helps you psycologically thru the down swings.Post a lot of hands, really, I used to lose too.

#12 Razor

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 02:30 PM

[quote name='"Actuary"]some really awful and really good advice on here.As always figuring out which is right is he key!pokerplayer and Canada won't ever steer you wrong.SSHE is good.Loose tables lend themselves to a lot more variance.Buy in is meaningless. Just have 12BB's before the hand startsHave 300BB+ or even more if it helps you psycologically thru the down swings.[b]Post a lot of hands' date=' really, I used to lose too.[/[/b']quote]Thx for the advice .... I will ... I'm actually thinking about taking a paper and pen to the tables to record the hands I play .... sometimes I can spot my mistakes, but I miss a lot of them obviously. I'll try to keep a record of some hands and I'll post 'em on here when I get the chance.

#13 HCarl

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 04:54 PM

I don't understand why I'm getting blown off.I'm not saying that playing small suited connectors and small/medium pairs in an extremely loose game is a bad idea over time. But from the information given, we can't assume that it's possible to wait out an unlucky streak.Let's say that the lowest game at the local casino is 3/6, which is how it is out here. Expecting a beginning/occaisional player who is just starting to feel things out to have 1800 dollars set aside for poker before they start is rediculous.Let's say you buy in for 200 in said 3/6 game. If it's as loose as described, there will probably be 2 raises per street on average. Therefore it costs 54 dollars for each hand played. That means you only really have enough money to chase 3-4 draws.On average, you will only hit 1 of these draws. And if you don't have the nut flush, there's a good chance that someone will have you beat in such a loose game (a lot of people in these low limit games just want to gamble so they'll chase with anything suited).So if you play small draws there's a good chance you'll go broke without doing anything wrong. Another thing that has to be kept in mind is a lot of people in these games raise and bet with anything, so very little is learned to make decisions on the strength of your hand, forcing you to call it down.If you only play big pairs and big draws, they will hold up in the end more often and allow you to build a bankroll and play more for the long term.I don't understand why it is assumed that everyone has enough money to push small edges in the long run. A lot of people just starting don't have the bankroll and it is not possible to pick a smaller limit game, so they're screwed. Therefore, they have to maximize the percentages on the draws/hands that are played.Please let me know where the flaw in my logic is.

#14 Actuary

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 05:26 PM

your advice is prescribing a low variance strategyI would advise a sufficient bank roll so that we could play to maximize our EV, not min Variance.You can play online for very small amounts.

#15 HCarl

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 05:33 PM

I agree. Low limits can be played online, but it's fun to mix it up and play in a real casino. From the intial post it sounded like he was a recreational player just starting out, not having enough for large swings. So if he wanted to continue playing in the casino a lower variance strategy should be adopted.Playing with a low variance strategy will allow a recreational player to win more often and begin to build of a bankroll that can be used to make the most of smaller advantages.Sorry if this sounds defensive, but I was just trying to explain my reasoning so I can decide if I'm a complete idiot or not.

#16 SomethingWicked

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 05:39 PM

Good posts so far. Razor, I'd been going through some similar stuff at my local casino. We play 3/6 in wa state and higher nothing lower from what I've seen. I really like Carls post, most players even if they've been playing for a few yrs may not even have the proper bank roll to sit in this game and be consistantly profitable. Personally, I dont play many small pocket pairs and connectors because like in the above post YOU WILL GET CALLED DOWN with ANYTHING. Flopping a small set with even 4 ppl in the pot is going to crush your buy-in. If all you have that week is your buy-in your absolutely screwed for the night or in debt. One thing that helped when I was thin on cash and still jonesing for a good game, get a couple buddies and play a lower limit or a tourney. If your br is thin, generally entering a smaller buy in weekend tourney can give your br an extra boost. Then, sit in the live game and make them pay. Chances are you're chasing too many hands for the size of your br, even if you dont make any mistakes you may loose your buy in. It happens. Don't be foolish enough to think (like me) that since you've been crushing these lower limit games that you'll continue to crush the game without the proper bankroll. It just doesn't happen. Take it from someone who's never read a book and done everything assbackward. Without the proper bankroll your chances of winning are slim to none. Good Luck, and Remember small buy in tournements are your friend.

#17 SomethingWicked

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 05:40 PM

Actuary said:

your advice is prescribing a low variance strategyI would advise a sufficient bank roll so that we could play to maximize our EV, not min Variance.You can play online for very small amounts.
Actuary- online play may not be a posible for some ppl, as online gaming is illegal in my state.

#18 econ_tim

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 05:52 PM

SomethingWicked said:

Actuary- online play may not be a posible for some ppl, as online gaming is illegal in my state.
it's illegal in every stateyet somehow we still play

#19 SomethingWicked

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 06:14 PM

Well, some ppl are put off by that. (I would not be one of them) But thanks for the sarcastic comment.

#20 iggymcfly

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 11:54 PM

lol @ somethingwicked. I'm in Washington right now, and I'm playing a 10/20 game online while I'm posting.Now for the OP, don't listen to the people that say you need to "set aside" $2000 to play in a 3/6 game. That's absolutely wrong. If you were trying to play for a living, or bound and determined to make your internet bankroll go up, or even decide if it was profitable to move up in limits, those considerations might be true. However, if you're looking to have fun at the casino, and make a little money on the side, then there's no need to get so extreme.I'd say that if you're playing 3/6, just buy-in for a rack ($100) and allow yourself exactly one rebuy every time. Don't play ultra-tight or anything like that; just play your best game, and go in wherever you think you have an edge. That's what I did when I was playing 3/6 and I found that while I often lost my initial buy-in, I never lost two unless I either went on tilt or got bored and started playing random garbage. As long as you play reasonably solid, that should be enough to beat a loose game. Also, don't play scared. Most of the time, when you do something to "reduce variance", i.e. skipping bets on the river, throwing away pocket pairs preflop, you just end up giving away chips.




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