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sb vs. bb when you are sb


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#41 Steppin Razor

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 11:48 AM

I don't understand the fear of loose passive players. Loose players call with trash. Make them pay for it. If your hand is really poor, fold it don't limp it. Like CoranMoran said, the error is completing.As for AA or KK, maybe once in a while smooth call, but you don't win money by not betting. All you do is give chances for ragged two pairs, or longshots to take free shots.

#42 Abbaddabba

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 12:34 PM

The reason he's advocating defending the blind against them with virtually anything is because how predictable they'll be post flop.If you fold every time you're behind and get in lots of bets every time you're ahead, it's quite easy to play.If the guy is passive preflop but plays well post flop, i dont think a complete/fold is out of the question.Who knows though? It might not even be close. :!:

#43 CoranMoran

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 01:02 PM

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If your hand is really poor, fold it don't limp it.
The raise-or-fold strategy is certainly a quality idea that would avoid the awkwardness of this situation completely.But there are certain BB opponents that give the idea of limping from the SB some appeal.These opponents have the following characteristics:- They will always call a raise from the SB when in the BB.- They will call you down postflop with very marginal hands.- They will only bet/raise with monsters (preflop and post flop).- They are predictable and obvious.When in a hand with these opponents, the following important facts hold true:- I will get several free cards because these opponents will rarely show aggression.- When I hit my hand, I will get paid off several bets.The culmination of these facts gives me the following ideas:- Bluffing is a bad idea because I will usually be called down; thus my fold equity is nominal. (This includes a preflop raise when I don't have a strong hand.)- I am likely to see a cheap flop by limping.- I reap the rewards of implied odds if I hit my hand, and lose little if I miss because I only am investing the minimum to see most of the cards.Under those circumstances, I would prefer to limp with my T9o and see a cheap flop.If the flop comes down AT2, I can comfortably lead out and easily be called down by a lesser hand.However, if after I limped with my T9o, my predictable opponent put in an uncharacteristic preflop raise, I am no longer in the comfortable spot I was in the previous example.If I call this raise, and the flop is the same AT2, I no longer am able to lead with my middle pair and win some easy bets.Because remember, even if this opponent does not have an Ace, he will call me down with his QQ.Thus seeing this flop when I knew I was behind preflop doesn't have much value any more.These types of players are certainly the minority, but they are out there.I identify them when they are to my left, and use the open-limp from the SB on these occasions.--cnm

#44 MrNiceGuy

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 01:30 PM

Smasharoo said:

If a passive player opens preflop, and it's folded to you in the BB, do you almost always defend?Yes.In fact, if it's heads up I almost allways defend, period. There are situations where I'll fold, but it's more because the game is good and I'd rather just move on to the next hand. There are some hands that can be tough to play against a passive player's raise that I might muck for the same reason. A7o for instance. Fold 82o heads up, though? Never.good luck.
Ok, I see where you're coming from - this makes sense. Thanks.

#45 Steppin Razor

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 02:59 PM

I definitely can't fault your reasoning, but I come to a different conclusion.

CoranMoran said:

The raise-or-fold strategy is certainly a quality idea that would avoid the awkwardness of this situation completely.But there are certain BB opponents that give the idea of limping from the SB some appeal.These opponents have the following characteristics:- They will always call a raise from the SB when in the BB.- They will call you down postflop with very marginal hands.- They will only bet/raise with monsters (preflop and post flop).- They are predictable and obvious.When in a hand with these opponents, the following important facts hold true:- I will get several free cards because these opponents will rarely show aggression.- When I hit my hand, I will get paid off several bets.
- Always call my raise PF? Fine by me. More money for me when I win. More money for me when I get him to fold the flop. More money for him when he hits. That's ok, I've got two chances to win the pot to his one.- Post flop strategy depends on player style and reads. Even someone who calls marginal hands will occasionally fold when he has nothing. If he doesn't fold, I'll evaluate my high card strength v. what I think he's got and what comes on the board.- If I know for a fact he will only bet or raise with monsters, he can have my one small bet. How often is he going to have a monster?- I like playing against predictable and obvious players. It makes it easy for me to win a lot and lose a little.- I can get free cards by being the aggressor, representing a big hand PF. I can check when I want to and take a free card too.- When I hit my hand, I will get paid off several bets. +1 small bet :club:

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The culmination of these facts gives me the following ideas:- Bluffing is a bad idea because I will usually be called down; thus my fold equity is nominal. (This includes a preflop raise when I don't have a strong hand.)- I am likely to see a cheap flop by limping.- I reap the rewards of implied odds if I hit my hand, and lose little if I miss because I only am investing the minimum to see most of the cards.
- Keeping up with a bluff is a bad idea. But, my high card may be best. I may have options beyond just hitting a pair, and again, since he likely has nothing I can take it from him. Here, I'm evaluating the board, my reads and my cards.- I reap the rewards of implied odds too if I hit my hand. I may lose one extra small bet once in a while, but my aggression could scare him into not betting or raising his better hand. I get to max out my money earned against him, but he may save me bets by being too afraid to pull the trigger.

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Under those circumstances, I would prefer to limp with my T9o and see a cheap flop.If the flop comes down AT2, I can comfortably lead out and easily be called down by a less hand.
If I hit my hand, I can comfortably lead out middle pair no matter what. Again, chances are he missed. If he did, he paying to draw to at best six outs. He might have hit a lesser hand. And, he might not raise me with an Ace - I save a bet.

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However, if after I limped with my T9o, my predictable opponent put in an uncharacteristic preflop raise, I am no longer in the comfortable spot I was in the previous example.If I call this raise, and the flop is the same AT2, I no longer am able to lead with my middle pair and win some easy bets.Because remember, even if this opponent does not have an Ace, he will call me down with his QQ.Thus seeing this flop when I knew I was behind preflop doesn't have much value any more.
If a predictable player only raises with a monster 3 bets me PF, then I'll fit or fold.If I can get a hand like QQ to never raise me, I'll take the cheap cards to beat him.

#46 Abbaddabba

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 03:52 PM

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- Always call my raise PF? Fine by me. More money for me when I win. More money for me when I get him to fold the flop. More money for him when he hits. That's ok, I've got two chances to win the pot to his one.
If you're banking on a calling station to fold a winner against you, i think you should re evaluate your strategy.It might happen on occasion, but it's rarely profitable.

#47 Canada

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 02:11 AM

Verdimme said:

Smasharoo said:

If a passive player opens preflop, and it's folded to you in the BB, do you almost always defend?Yes.In fact, if it's heads up I almost allways defend, period. There are situations where I'll fold, but it's more because the game is good and I'd rather just move on to the next hand. There are some hands that can be tough to play against a passive player's raise that I might muck for the same reason. A7o for instance. Fold 82o heads up, though? Never.good luck.
Hi, can you elaborate on why you will defend?
1) If your good postflop, its +EV2) The more skilled your opponents the more significant this becomes in your game. High stakes/quality games are often heads up battles for the blinds. You need to be competent defending to move up and survive

#48 Steppin Razor

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 02:37 PM

Abbaddabba said:

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- Always call my raise PF? Fine by me. More money for me when I win. More money for me when I get him to fold the flop. More money for him when he hits. That's ok, I've got two chances to win the pot to his one.
If you're banking on a calling station to fold a winner against you, i think you should re evaluate your strategy.It might happen on occasion, but it's rarely profitable.
Keep in mind we're just talking about open raising from the SB, not post flop strategy.I'm not banking on a calling station folding a winner. I'm banking on him folding PF, folding when he misses, calling instead of raising when he's winning, and paying me off +1 when I make my hand.

#49 wrto4556

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 06:07 PM

Smasharoo said:

If a passive player opens preflop, and it's folded to you in the BB, do you almost always defend?Yes.In fact, if it's heads up I almost allways defend, period.  There are situations where I'll fold, but it's more because the game is good and I'd rather just move on to the next hand.  There are some hands that can be tough to play against a passive player's raise that I might muck for the same reason.  A7o for instance.  Fold 82o heads up, though?  Never.good luck.
does anyone even put people on a range of hands anymore?

#50 allinbluff35

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 06:30 PM

wrto4556 said:

does anyone even put people on a range of hands anymore?
what would be the point, they can have anything!!!
Only after you have lost everything, are you free to do anything.


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#51 screech

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 06:40 PM

allinbluff35 said:

wrto4556 said:

does anyone even put people on a range of hands anymore?
what would be the point, they can have anything!!!
So can we if we always call. :club:

#52 DCWildcat

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 06:54 PM

If you're using hand ranges, you're thinking too much. Real poker players play by gut instinct. If you're considering your opponents' possible hands, it's way too easy to let yourself get outplayed.

#53 jayboogie

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 11:35 AM

DCWildcat said:

If you're using hand ranges, you're thinking too much. Real poker players play by gut instinct. If you're considering your opponents' possible hands, it's way too easy to let yourself get outplayed.
Are you kidding or serious? I'm not sure which, but it's pretty stupid not to even think about what your opponent has, hand reading ability is probably the most important skill of all in poker. If you can read your opponent's hands you will save yourself bets and maximize your profits with the best hand.




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