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sb vs. bb when you are sb


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#1 bascomeb

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 08:27 PM

In my limit game I'm having some trouble when everyone folds to me as sb and its me vs bb. Being out of position is really bad for me in this spot.I was wondering what hands do you usually fold here or just call or raise coming in? Do you raise with any ace? Any King? Curious how you guys play this spot

#2 bascomeb

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 10:51 PM

anyone?

#3 iggymcfly

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 05:39 AM

I raise with anything remotely playable. (Remotely playable includes a pocket pair, an ace, a king, a queen or jack with a nine or better, 10-9o and any suited connector.)If my hand doesn't fit that group, I just fold from the small blind. I've experimented with just calling there, but it gives the BB the option to raise you anyway, and it takes away the initiative which is the best way to win the hand heads-up.As far as I'm concerned, being open in the small blind, on the button, or even in the cutoff seat is a raise or fold situation just about every time.

#4 dscoot

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 08:18 PM

i would hardly ever raise. there is a theory that goes something like this, "the more money in the pot, the more tempting the pot is to others" this is mostly an idea for pot limit games, but also fits well in blind vs blind situations.by making the pot bigger , there may be a higher chance the bb will bluff u out of your winning hand successfully, whether u got middle pair or just ace high. bb has position on you.hopefully u are sitting next to the same person for a while. if they see you consistently limping and not trying to steal their bb in these situations, they will not get upset with you and play an honest postflop on these blind battles. also , if they see u not raising them much, in a tourny, when the blinds are bigger and a steal would actually increase your stack by 15% or more, they may be more inclined to lay down to you when u do decide to raise.also, another reason i like limping is cause a lot of people are aggressive in fixed limit when they have position. if u check to them on flop , turn , river, etc... they may keep betting with weaker hands thinking you'll fold and you can get some hands like middle pair, top pair, etc.. paid off nicely.finally, if you raise the bb alot, they will play back. this means you will not be able to come in for a limp preflop much at all (say with q-7). if u play how i mentioned above, most bb will let u limp nearly everytime. and limping is the ultimate goal here, as you will be getting 4-1 pot odds on your complete which is good enough for any two cards.oh yeah i would limp alot of times with big hands like aa, kk, qq as well. once again let the bb play aggressor and bet your hands for you. bottom line on these hands is that this is not NL, if your opponent in bb cracks your AA with q7 , oh well , move on, there is not much different you could have played to get them to lay their hand down. also keep in mind if u play how i suggest, try to let your aggressive opponent make a bet on fourth or fifth be4 u reraise, bc bets on fourth or fifth are twice as big as bets on third. (this advice is based 100% on tournament play, especially as blinds get bigger as they do in most large mtt online tournies)not sure if its the best strategy for cash games

#5 custom36

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 08:20 PM

Read SSHE. Post hands. This is a horribly vague question with so many different answers based on table conditions, your style of play, table image, stakes, etc.

#6 dscoot

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 08:27 PM

oh yeah i meant to say at the start of my post, why make the pot bigger when u are out of position. make the pot bigger when u are in late position. jsut a real general thought there

#7 iggymcfly

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 05:36 AM

Well, maybe if you're playing real high limits or real low limits, you want to limp, but I know that playing anywhere from 3/6 to 10/20, you get way more fold equity than you deserve when you raise from the small blind.Also, it seems like if you limp, your opponent will raise you every time unless their hand is so weak that it would have warranted a fold if you'd raised. Really, it seems like the only time you lose value is when you get three-bet, and a lot of times, a three-bet in this situation can be a good warning to keep you from overplaying a marginal hand.Maybe my view of the situation is skewed from playing too many NL sit & gos, but I really hate limping in this situation.

#8 dscoot

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 10:59 AM

a) your out of positionB) your heads up, so your only getting 1-1 on your invested chips this is not a successful formula for making the pot biggersure your opponent may raise your limps, but eventually they'll slowdown after u beat them out of a few pots on the showdown when your middle pair holds up and they've bet every street.---mayb if the person in the bb is a donkey and can be abused, i would push alot, but if they are a good player, i would limp alot----

#9 justblaze

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 11:04 AM

rule #1: NEVER OPENLIMP. the first time someone open limps from SB i label him a donkey until proven otherwise. rule #2: play the man. against tight players i raise pretty much any two suited cards, Ax, Kx, most Qx, any two connected cards above 7, pretty much anything. against a loose player that range comes down a lot.

#10 bascomeb

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 11:47 AM

justblaze said:

rule #1: NEVER OPENLIMP. the first time someone open limps from SB i label him a donkey until proven otherwise.  rule #2: play the man. against tight players i raise pretty much any two suited cards, Ax, Kx, most Qx, any two connected cards above 7, pretty much anything. against a loose player that range comes down a lot.
by open limp do you mean to limp then fold to a raise?

#11 justblaze

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 11:59 AM

bascomeb said:

justblaze said:

rule #1: NEVER OPENLIMP. the first time someone open limps from SB i label him a donkey until proven otherwise.  rule #2: play the man. against tight players i raise pretty much any two suited cards, Ax, Kx, most Qx, any two connected cards above 7, pretty much anything. against a loose player that range comes down a lot.
by open limp do you mean to limp then fold to a raise?
no, i mean open-limp as in you are the first person to enter the pot, and you limp. this can be done in some situations, but never in the small blind (or on the button, or in the cutoff, or in the hijack - theres just no strategic justification). you are opening the action with a sign of weakness, and letting the big blind see a flop with any two cards. if you decide your cards are good enough to play, make sure you force the big blind to do make the same decision.

#12 dscoot

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 01:26 PM

well i did bust justblaze out of a fixedlimit rebuy tourny on stars a while back when i won the final table and he finished 3rd. so we both know how to play.how can u justify making the pot bigger when u are out of position, justblaze? if u play my way eventually u will be able to limp with hands like 3-7, 4-9, etc,, w/o the bb raising u, which can win pots in fixed limit, believe it or not.if played properly u can make a killing in b vs b battles, and i just dont think making the pots bigger from the small blind is a good idea

#13 Abbaddabba

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 01:53 PM

Quote

rule #1: NEVER OPENLIMP. the first time someone open limps from SB i label him a donkey until proven otherwise. rule #2: play the man. against tight players i raise pretty much any two suited cards, Ax, Kx, most Qx, any two connected cards above 7, pretty much anything. against a loose player that range comes down a lot.
That's bad advice.If you advocate playing the player and not the cards, you need to realize that some situations, completing is better than raising and better than folding.When the person is a loose passive and will show down any pair, why do you want to raise low suited connectors? Getting paid 3 to 1 against a villain who doesnt bluff is an easy complete, but you almost definitely don't have an equity edge - so raising is bad.

#14 justblaze

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 02:21 PM

dscoot said:

well i did bust justblaze out of a fixedlimit rebuy tourny on stars a while back when i won the final table and he finished 3rd. so we both know how to play.how can u justify making the pot bigger when u are out of position, justblaze? if u play my way eventually u will be able to limp with hands like 3-7, 4-9, etc,, w/o the bb raising u, which can win pots in fixed limit, believe it or not.if played properly u can make a killing in b vs b battles, and i just dont think making the pots bigger from the small blind is a good idea
because you are ignoring the fact that the big blind may fold. then you win the whole pot. you also get fold equity on later streets. i play exclusively shorthanded limit, so im playing in the blinds almost every other hand in many sessions. saving that one small bet is a relatively miniscule benefit to the potential disaster of a) waving a flag to an observant player that says 'id like to see the flop here but my hand isnt very good' and B) giving the big blind a free look at a flop with a hand he may fold to a preflop raise.

#15 justblaze

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 02:26 PM

Abbaddabba said:

Quote

rule #1: NEVER OPENLIMP. the first time someone open limps from SB i label him a donkey until proven otherwise. rule #2: play the man. against tight players i raise pretty much any two suited cards, Ax, Kx, most Qx, any two connected cards above 7, pretty much anything. against a loose player that range comes down a lot.
That's bad advice.If you advocate playing the player and not the cards, you need to realize that some situations, completing is better than raising and better than folding.When the person is a loose passive and will show down any pair, why do you want to raise low suited connectors? Getting paid 3 to 1 against a villain who doesnt bluff is an easy complete, but you almost definitely don't have an equity edge - so raising is bad.
its still garbage, man. first of all, for metagame purposes, you are narrowing your sb steal range for anyone paying attention. secondly, you lose a lot of fold equity. thirdly, you may let the big blind in with complete garbage which is a disaster. fourthly, i dont really want to play low suited connectors against a villain who is going to check/call to the river regardless. you just have way too many tricky decisions on the flop and your implied odds are screwed by the fact that villain wont ever raise without the nuts. the list of problems with this play goes on and on. Go watch 15-30 (6) and tell me if you see ANY skilled players open-completing in the small blind ever. you wont.

#16 justblaze

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 02:43 PM

ok, this question has got me annoyed. a few people i respect are disagreeing with me (not here - ive been thinking bout this for an hour now), so im going to do some more research and get back to you guys.

#17 bascomeb

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 03:23 PM

justblaze said:

ok, this question has got me annoyed. a few people i respect are disagreeing with me (not here - ive been thinking bout this for an hour now), so im going to do some more research and get back to you guys.
Well I'm glad this question is raising some eyebrows. Just not sure what advice to follow :x

#18 dscoot

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 05:19 PM

yeah my replies about limping are 100% based on tournaments, especially with increasing and large blinds in relative to stacks.. i have zero experience playing cash games, however, justblaze, or others who liike the raise here, i suggest you listen to the cardplayer live wsop final table coverage. at one point, dn, hellmuth and jen harmon talk for a few good minutes about this exact situation. (blind vs blind) they are discussing NL tho, so it may differ from FL. they all agree that the best play from the sb here is either raise big or limp. they say raising small is a horrible play, unless u have aa or kk. they began discussing this after someone at the final table was in the sb. the blinds were like 50k-100k and the sb made it 225k to go. they basically said dont raise small enough to price the bb into calling with any two cards. and dont build the pot when you are out of position.

#19 Abbaddabba

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 05:36 PM

Quote

its still garbage, man. first of all, for metagame purposes, you are narrowing your sb steal range for anyone paying attention. secondly, you lose a lot of fold equity. thirdly, you may let the big blind in with complete garbage which is a disaster. fourthly, i dont really want to play low suited connectors against a villain who is going to check/call to the river regardless. you just have way too many tricky decisions on the flop and your implied odds are screwed by the fact that villain wont ever raise without the nuts. the list of problems with this play goes on and on.  Go watch 15-30 (6) and tell me if you see ANY skilled players open-completing in the small blind ever. you wont.
You would rarely see someone skilled open completing the SB at a 15/30 because they RARELY face someone loose/passive enough to warrant it. As far as i know, this thread isnt specifically about 15/30 tables. There are many opponents and situations that _most of us_ play in where completing the SB is better than raising.If other people at the table think that the fact that you're completing the SB and not raising translates into the fact that you don't blind steal with marginal hands (IN POSITION!), then it will only be to your benefit. You probably don't have to worry about loose/passives being observant enough to see that your open raise from the SB range is limited to the extremely narrow "above average" spectrum. (sw)Letting the BB in with complete trash isn't a disaster. Low suited connectors are ALSO trash heads up. You may be "letting him in for cheap" - but look at the up side, YOU got in for cheap with a hand that, in all likelyhood, is a dog to whatever he has. The point is you're getting 'pot odds' to call. Folding is probably better than raising with a below average hand, OOP, when you have zero fold equity when he makes any pair.

#20 bascomeb

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 05:41 PM

dscoot said:

they all agree that the best play from the sb here is either raise big or limp.   they say raising small is a horrible play, unless u have aa or kk.  
well sorry this is limit. you can only raised a fixed amount :roll:




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