41 replies to this topic

[lokibeat]

This happened to me twice this weekend in a couple of small entry MTT's on UB. It's early in the tournament(s) and I'm following my strategy pretty well. My early tournament strategy is essentially only to play premium hands (raising first ideally) and limping and calling small raises with PP and folding if I don't hit my set.In the first one, I'm on the button and the first two players limp in. Other's fold to me. I have AQ, so I do my typical 3.5BB raise. Blinds fold, first player calls and second player re-raises. I'm confused. If you had a good hand why didn't you raise it first. It seems if he has a premium hand, why risk just calling early in the tournament and people typically play any two cards. I figure he's making a play on me, so eventually I move all in. (There may have been a couple of re-raises in between.)Cards turned up, he's got AA and I'm out of the tournament.In the second one, I'm the big blind and I have JJ. I don't remember how many players limped, but the small blind limps. I do my 3.5BB raise and SB re-raises? Huh? Again, I'm not sure what he's doing, but after a couple of re-raises, I'm all in and he's got KK. I'm crippled going into the first break of the tournament. As a result, I've learned to be wary of limp-raises pre-flop. I've learned to now simply call even if I think I have the best hand, but my question is; Is this a good tactic to employ? I remember reading SS1 and Brunson recommending a strategy like this limping in first/early position hoping somebody raises, but in a tournament setting given the risks/lunatics out there is this a valid play?Any thoughts?

[MrConceit]

lokibeat said:

*snip*As a result, I've learned to be wary of limp-raises pre-flop.  I've learned to now simply call even if I think I have the best hand, but my question is; Is this a good tactic to employ?  I remember reading SS1 and Brunson recommending a strategy like this limping in first/early position hoping somebody raises, but in a tournament setting given the risks/lunatics out there is this a valid play?Any thoughts?

Your AQo you could have easily been gotten away from. The JJ not so much.But as far as the strategy goes, it can be valid, it depends on the makeup of your table. If somebody is always raising in mid or late if nobody else has raised (to steal or with semi-good hands), then it's a very valid strategy. But that said, it usually is better to wait until the blinds are larger to do this strategy. It doesn't tend to work as well early on.As far as playing against it: a lot has to be based on observations. You have to try to figure out who are the limp-reraisers who do it only with AA/KK and maybe QQ. And that's almost impossible to do early in a tourney unless you have played with them before and have notes on them.

[Wilderness]

It seems to me that just about all limp-raises are people playing big pairs (AA,KK, sometimes QQ) so when that happens, especially in a tournament, I'm usually able to let go of my hand unless I've got a premium hand as well so as you've now learned, you'll just have to back off from limp-raises unless you've really got something.As a strategy, I don't think that limp-raising is a good way to play big pairs, but many people love to do it online so you've just got to watch out. It is nice though, since it usually narrows their hands down very nicely, as opposed to coming in for a regular 3XBB or 4XBB bet and not knowing if they have AA or AJo.

[Metro]

MrConceit said:

Your AQo you could have easily been gotten away from. The JJ not so much.

I would think the JJ would be a pretty easy hand to let go of. Any hand that's limp-raising you, you're at best going to have a 50% shot at. AK or an overpair.

[MrConceit]

Metro said:

MrConceit said:

Your AQo you could have easily been gotten away from. The JJ not so much.

I would think the JJ would be a pretty easy hand to let go of. Any hand that's limp-raising you, you're at best going to have a 50% shot at. AK or an overpair.

Haha, you must only play vs good people. I've been limp-reraised by utter trash a number of times.Don't get me wrong, I know what you're saying, but if you have no reads on the people, it can really depend. And if you have no reads you do almost have to go on the assumption they aren't yahoos, but man, I see some of the most ridiculous sh1t being limp-reraised. Usually of course when I have AA/KK so I don't have to worry as much about it.87 suited, 33, T9 os, the list goes on and on. A7 of hearts? I mean hah!But again, I do hear what you're saying, and unless you know they're a yahoo/bad player, you usually have to assume the AA/KK/QQ thing.The only non-stupid excuse I can think of for these people is they're putting me on a steal so they're restealing with a hand they'd hoped to see a cheap flop with.That's if I'm being nice.

[Smasharoo]

Limp re-raising big pairs is fine (and common) at a table where most pots are opened with a raise.Common in agressive limit games also.It's essentially just check raising on the flop.

[Erudis]

i play the limp-raise fairly often under the gun or one off in NL cash games and NL tourneys with AA (not nearly as often with KK). The important thing to understand when you do this move is to understand what you're looking for and what you're trying to accomplish. I'll explain:Ideally you get a few limpers behind you and then someone in good position tries to take advantage of this with a good hand by making a large raise. You pounce on this usually by going all in at this point, or making some very large reraise. What you are trying to accomplish in this situation is one of the following:1. a preflop all in with one other person that you have dominated2. taking the flop one on one with someone you have dominated3. winning what is now a decent to good sized pot preflop in relative safetyNow, to do this move you have to understand one other extremely important thing: if the worst should happen (nobody raises and there are several limpers) be willing, BE WILLING, to dump those Aces as if they were dueces. You may still win the pot, but you are very vulnerable and you cannot allow yourself to get involved and lose a large pot at this point with AA after an unraised preflop.I'd recommend to try this move out yourself a few times as it can really make you a lot of money and is really about the only way (well, the safest way at least) you're going to be playing a big pot and winning with AA or KK. But remember that in order for you to consistently do this move you have to be completely willing to dump AA/KK after the flop hits and it went unraised pre-flop if you have any reason at all to think you might not have the best hand.

[augmented]

i want to limp reraise all in with nothing and get them to fold queens. how cool would that be?i dont know what it is, it just seems like limp reraising is kind of a new tactic. i really like the idea of it with big pairs, because even if you limp and no one raises, you still have disguised your hand, and you can lead out big on the flop (barring an overcard). i havent yet used it in my home game, but i plan to this friday if i get QQ, KK, or AA in EP. i hope i dont forget.

[Wilderness]

augmented said:

i dont know what it is, it just seems like limp reraising is kind of a new tactic. i really like the idea of it with big pairs, because even if you limp and no one raises, you still have disguised your hand, and you can lead out big on the flop (barring an overcard). i havent yet used it in my home game, but i plan to this friday if i get QQ, KK, or AA in EP. i hope i dont forget.

I don't know what limits you play, but the low limits that I play (.25/.5 mostly), people limp re-raise all the time. It seems to be a very popular way to play big pairs in low limits and I don't think its the best way to play them.When someone limp re-raises, they almost always have a big pair and its pretty obvious, which makes it an easy fold either before or on the flop. Also, it can let people in who shouldn't be in (blinds, etc) who can then hit two pair and take you down. By simply raising when its your turn, people will know you have a decent hand, but they won't know if you are playing AA or AJo or even a mid pair.

[SORROW_HARVESTER]

First hand is a fold unless suited then limp... and the second is a limp/fold if you dont hit. Bad raises and calls. To raise either you needed 3 hands only. AKs, KK or AA. Sorry but you were beaten/outplayed each time.

[Socrates]

A lot of people are limp raising with big hands like this because the game and the tournaments have become a lot more loose with the influx of new players. This is a valid tactic spelled out in a few books, but it is risky. The risk is diminished a little with the new style of poker that is being played. There are a lot of new people who take to heart the phrases "any two cards can win" and "you have to be aggressive bluff to win" - if you know that these people are at your table, then why wouldn't you limp raise? He may have very well had a read on you that you raise from the button alot etc...

[Evenflown]

Glad I read this post earlier today. So I just sat down at a $5+$1 Sit and Go on Party Poker and a few hands in I get dealt As-Qs in the small blind, a lot of callers, blinds are 10/15 so I bet out 80. BB calls, UTG+1 goes all in which has me covered. Folds all the way around to me, I think about it for a minute, wondering if he has shit and he's just trying to make a move and take down a pot that already had a couple hundred chips in it.I guess that he's probably not that sophisticated, so I type in "I have Ace Queen suited, should I call" And he responds with "With the luck I've been having today you should." Lol, I just knew at that point he had aces or kings and wanted me to call him. So I toss my hand and he turns over pocket kings.The first mistake he made was limping in, playing at a $5 SnG you are rarely ever going to play with the same people constantly so there is hardly any reason to vary your play. In these sit and goes, I would always bet from an early position with a high pocket pair, even if I know that there is a lot of betting and raising going on pre flop. Limping in is way too dangerous, because if you do that, you are running a great risk of getting cracked by crap, and I've seen it happen time and time again to people that limped in with a good hand.And secondly, that’s no way to get value for your hand because the only time you are going to get a caller is when you are most likely beat, and if you do have the best hand every one is most likely going to fold and you aren't going to get nearly as much money for your hand if some idiot hits top pair on the flop or a draw and thinks its worth going all in for.You could argue that the way people play poker these days it is a good move, but I personally don't see the risk-reward ratio of limp raising being a play that you should be making all the time, and if you are facing a limp raise, unless you have Aces or Kings I would just throw it away and wait until you get dealt a hand you are almost certain you are a favorite to win against a limp raise.

[Abbaddabba]

I personally wouldnt limp raise with anything less than kings.I'd also only do it in early position (obviously).If you see it happening to you and you have, say - jacks; think about a few things. Most people only limp raise with high pockets from early position. If you were in a late position when you raised with a good hand, it may simply be a case of them thinking you were on a blind steal, but unless you're playing the micro limits, not that common.A/Q is incredibly easy to get away from. At least it should be. With a limp raise from early position for anything more than the minraise, ill toss it. It being suited makes a marginal difference.

[Abbaddabba]

Quote

I guess that he's probably not that sophisticated, so I type in "I have Ace Queen suited, should I call" And he responds with "With the luck I've been having today you should." Lol, I just knew at that point he had aces or kings and wanted me to call him.

Uhh...He was, in a not so subtle way, TELLING you that he had you beat. I'm not sure that you should take someones word with respect to whether or not to call them down. I dont see any reason to believe that he's more likely to be giving you real information as opposed to a lie. If he had said "ahh, damn, i thought YOU were bluffing" after you told him you had A/Q, would you read into that saying "WOW, I GUESS HE WAS BLUFFING"?

[Evenflown]

Ace-Queen is very easy to get away from, it's just against such bad players I've seen them limp raise with pocket 3's, so you wonder once 'n a while what you might be up against. But more times then not, you are up against aces or kings.

[Emptyeye]

Yeah, limp/reraise usually screams "HELLO I HAVE ACES OR KINGS". Depending on how big they've made the reraise, as I see it, I have a license to call with ANY two cards now. If they're someone who has shown they'll marry aces or kings, I can call with random trash and try to hit the flop hard and take their stack. If they pride themselves on making a big laydown, I can try and make a move to push them off their big pocket pair and take their money that way.In short, unless you're going to limp/reraise all-in AND you're good enough to get away from it post-flop if it looks like you're beat (If no one raises, then you're on shaky ground), I don't like the play.

[TheSpartan]

First, AQ and JJ are good hands and definately worthy of a raise - especially if you have position. But if you're getting reraised huge preflop you have to value them as not so good. JJ you're hoping to hit a set after a reraise, and AQ either a flush or a straight (and you might get lucky if an A falls and someone is playing KK). Check raising is a completely valid tactic and is hardly new (and a limp-raise is the same thing as a check raise in this situation).I'll usually fold AQ to a large reraise, as landing a flush or straight is very unlikely, and it's too costly to see if your flopped A or Q is worth anything after a large reraise. JJ I may or may not call, mainly dependent upon chip stack size and bet ratios.

[Koroshiya]

lokibeat said:

Cards turned up, he's got AA and I'm out of the tournament....Any thoughts?

I think the result above answers your question as to whether limping in early with a strong hand is a good tactic. I use it all the time.It all depends on the dynamic of the specific table, but it is very profitable to let someone else lead out with the early raise and then jump on them afterward. Even if no one raises PF, you have managed to sneak in with a killer pocket that no one suspects.I did it just last night at Party Poker and got very lucky as a result. I had JJ in the BB and I checked. I could have raised in an attempt to scare off drawing hands, but I gambled that I might make a strong hand after the flop, while giving someone else a chance think they had made top hand. As it worked out I caught trips on the flop and then in the end took a huge pot from three players who continued to think their hands had a chance. If I had raised in the BB and then bet on the flop when the other Jack hit, I would not have gotten the action.Limping in gave me a chance to get lucky and gave someone else a chance to think they had a better hand.K

[kidpoker1218]

That is a play i use alot is the limp reraise and being that the table is full and it is early you shouldve folded or just called to see the flop and if their was any other reraise from him he very easily wouldve have AA KK or QQ being that he propably wouldnt reraise more than once if he didnt have a high pair.