4 replies to this topic

[The Ace of Jades]

I've been playin with a couple kids I went to highschool with lately in tournament style no-limit hold em. We buy in for ten bucks, get sixty chips, 20 of $1.00, 50C, and 25C, and go at it.Personally, I'd just like to play ring game style, but they like the WSoP so thats what they play and its all the action I can find.The first time we played there were eight of us and I layed low for a while to get a feel for em. During this time I was only involved in a couple pots and quickly folded out of em. I ended up busting out third or so. And then we played again with about six people. I went out third. I'm not too upset about that loss cause I played well, I just didn't get any cards. I only made about three strong hands the entire time.So I went home and for the next two weeks brushed up on my poker. Played alot more seriously in the play money, read Phill Gordon's book and really improved. I was winning sit and go's here and there, and always gettin at least to the final table, or fifth in one table tourneys.Nothing too impressive, but I felt I definently had the ammo I needed to recoup the twenty I lost the next time we played.So I get there and only four of us show up, myself, the caller, the chick who I can't say if shes good or lucky, and another guy of about my skill. Same ten dollar buy in. I come out firing. I gain the lead with a couple flushes and top pairs. And then something goes wrong. The caller who had helped gain my lead starts calling my bigger bets and manages to suck out on my several times. The chick does the same and I quickly lose my chip lead.The other guy with my skill level and I don't really get involved in too many pots against each other. When we do we only go to show down about twice.The final nail in my coffin came against the chick. I flopped top pair with a kind high flush draw. The turn brings me the flush, I bet big enough to give improper odds in case she need one card for the ace high flush. She called.So I was a little worried that she already had me beat. Sure enough the river was the fourth suit so I checked. To my suprise she didn't bet too big so I called and sure enough she chased the flush with the ace and took quite a bit of stack with it.I won a couple more mediocure pots and then finally busted out first.I couldn't believe it.I knew I played well and I finally got decent cards. But somehow I managed to get sucked out on almost every hand I was in.The caller got busted next and then the chick.We haven't played since due to conflicting schedules. And when we do play I'm hoping to get these to poker fad kids in as well.I'm just wondering if you guys can give me some tips to protect against those damned suckouts and get the callers out before they do me in.Or really any help in any holes you see in my foggy recounting of those games.I'd like to add in after seeing several flames directed at those who play in the play money games. When I play in the play money sit and go's I do my best to play like its real. Others don't and go all in on the first hand pre flop, a crime I'm guilty of here and there. And I do call some bets I wouldn't call if it was real money. But for the most part, I pretend that I just coughed up the dough to play. I might not be gettin real money as a reward, but I am getting experience and a feel for how others a bet throughout a game for free. Not to mention it feels only slightly less good to win a fake money tournament with 27 people then it would had that been real money.

[Alcatraz]

The Ace of Jades said:

I've been playin with a couple kids I went to highschool with lately in tournament style no-limit hold em. We buy in for ten bucks, get sixty chips, 20 of $1.00, 50C, and 25C, and go at it.Personally, I'd just like to play ring game style, but they like the WSoP so thats what they play and its all the action I can find.

I have a regular home game with a similar structure. We vary the chip stacks and blind sizes from time to time and occasionaly we'll play ring game style as well, but mostly we do the tournaments. Don't knock it, it's a great way to learn and in the long run you'll be taking down a fair amount of money if you truly have the edge over the field.

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So I get there and only four of us show up, myself, the caller, the chick who I can't say if shes good or lucky, and another guy of about my skill.

This could be your first problem. She's no more or less lucky than you are. She may or may not be more skilled. Skilled players often appear to be lucky players because they know how to maximize their profits when they're lucky and minimize their losses when they're unlucky.Perhaps you're a better player preflop, and you're making better decisions than she is on the flop and turn, but need to work on your river play? If she's outdrawing you a lot, are you paying her off too much on the river? Or are you making her pay enough to get there?

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Same ten dollar buy in. I come out firing. I gain the lead with a couple flushes and top pairs. And then something goes wrong. The caller who had helped gain my lead starts calling my bigger bets and manages to suck out on my several times. The chick does the same and I quickly lose my chip lead.

One of the things that makes a skilled poker player is knowing when to switch gears and slow down. Against a calling station, be more cautious about betting 1 pair on the river.

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The final nail in my coffin came against the chick. I flopped top pair with a kind high flush draw. The turn brings me the flush, I bet big enough to give improper odds in case she need one card for the ace high flush. She called.

Does that include implied pot odds? Did she have pot odds to call if you include the money that you paid her off with on the river?

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So I was a little worried that she already had me beat. Sure enough the river was the fourth suit so I checked. To my suprise she didn't bet too big so I called and sure enough she chased the flush with the ace and took quite a bit of stack with it.

You mentioned that you had been playing agressively (as you should). It's possible that she saw your big bet as a semi bluff and considered any ace as an out as well. Of course she was wrong, which is good for you, but it might explain why she called.

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I knew I played well and I finally got decent cards. But somehow I managed to get sucked out on almost every hand I was in.

Well, it's certainly possible that you just had a run of bad luck. I remember an article by Mike Caro where he claimed to take more bad beats then most players, because you can only take a bad beat when you have your money in with the best of it. If you're taking a lot of bad beats, then it means you're getting your money in with the best of it and in the long run, you'll be a winner.If you continue to lose, then you need to take another look and see if maybe some of these bad beats and really so bad... For example, it's easy to have the best hand on the flop but actualy be an underdog to win the hand. In a tournament tonight at the final table, I was all in pre flop w/ AJs v Q9s and Q6s. The flop came Q52 with 2 of my suit. Even though I was currently losing, I was still a favorite to win the pot (and I did not, busting out in 6th place instead)

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I'm just wondering if you guys can give me some tips to protect against those damned suckouts and get the callers out before they do me in.

Short of cheating, there's no way to prevent suckouts. Against a weak passive calling station, keep making him pay to suckout and eventualy you'll get all of his chips. Against some players, not even an all in bet will make them fold their inside straight draw. Accept it and don't let it put you on tilt, and sooner or later that money will move back to your stack. Let it put you on tilt, and you'll lose even more.

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Or really any help in any holes you see in my foggy recounting of those games.

The info you gave is pretty sketchy. My bet would be that if you have a hole in your game, it's likely to be paying off too many people when they do suck out on you.No limit can be brutal. You can play brilliantly for 3 hours and then make one mistake and go broke. Playing selectively agressive got you that big stack -- Don't let one mistake or a moment of frustration lose it for you.

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I'd like to add in after seeing several flames directed at those who play in the play money games.

I love the play money games online. I play in them about as often as I play in the real money games and there's no doubt it my mind that it can help you improve your game if you use it right. The play money games resemble the lower limit live games you're likely to be playing in.

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When I play in the play money sit and go's I do my best to play like its real. Others don't and go all in on the first hand pre flop, a crime I'm guilty of here and there. And I do call some bets I wouldn't call if it was real money.

Ahh but there's the rub of it. You don't play like it's real. You only deviate from your game occasionaly, which is good... but if 9 players at the table only deviate occasionaly, then there's a lot of deviation going on. That's why it's not like a real game... but why it's a lot like low limit real poker.Good luck, keep working on your game, and I'm sure you'll be in the money soon.

[The Ace of Jades]

Thanks a lot. Like I said I hadn't seen her play so I can't say if she was gettin lucky or was playing good, but she did end up having a hand in my demise.And I think you read it a little wrong. I enjoy tournament style play and working on my technique for that will help me out.But yeah, thanks again. I'm sorry I couldn't be more descrpitive but it was a couple weeks ago and I did end up drowning my sorrows with free beer afterwards, during the game I only had one or two so I wasn't playing wasted.

[jayistheman]

you should really try to get them to play a ring game.... its so much better that way. ring games are alot more fun than doing tourneys all the time, and with people reloading and all, the money gets pretty big.

[The Ace of Jades]

Thats the reason I like ring game style. Its always great to be the big stack when someone comes to buy in and you don't have any more chips so they just buy from you. Easiest way to make your buy in back. Thats how I played down in SIU, but I haven't been able to find any ring games at home.But the're WSoP fans, I wouldn't be suprised if the majority of em wouldn't be playin if it weren't for that.