13 replies to this topic

[akishore]

i've reached a point where frankly, i'm disgusted with everything that i take for granted and assume to be true, when it comes to poker.why the hell should i be folding suited connectors to two cold without a big multiway pot? why the hell should i be three-betting mid pairs instead of cold-calling them or folding them, if i'm to the left of the raiser?why the hell should i be stealing blinds with 22, or not stealing with it? 33? 44? 55? why the hell should i be defending blinds with 22, or not defending with it? 33? 44? 55?why should i be raising AKo preflop? **** that "equity" shit, i know all about that junk. but we also don't raise 66 preflop even though we have an equity edge, because we realize that the vast majority of those times we win are when we hit a set, so it's more profitable to wait for the flop to see if we hit a set. why not apply the same reasoning to AK--e.g. even though we expect to win more than our fair share, most of that time will be when we flop a pair or better.(i don't agree with the above line of reasoning concerning AKo, but that's not the ****ing point!)anyway, i want to completely dismantle my game. **** around with it, tinker with this, completely screw that, tweak this, eliminate that, yada yada yada. don't know how practical this is at all, but here is what i want to experiment around with:1. completely eliminate suited connectors from my starting hands. that is, only play big cards and pairs.2. completely overvalue suited connectors. that is, i raise 87s first in, 54s on the button, three-bet 76s instead of cold-calling, liberally cap with JTs and T9s. the only problem will be i don't know where to draw the line between connectors, one-gappers, two-gappers, etc. (e.g. is J8s > 86s? how about T8s vs 54s? etc.) this can be arbitrarily resolved, though.3. get waaay more cautious/passive/tight/careful with mid pairs. if utg raises and it folds to me im MP, i'm folding 99. that is, all pairs 99- are played only for set value (so i cold-call if others in, or if blinds loose, etc.).4, get waaay more aggressive/loose/****-caution with mid pairs. i want to liberally three-bet 77 after utg raises and gets two cold-calls. i want to raise 77 after three limpers instead of playing it for set value. let's explore this equity shit...5. i want to only raise (preflop) hands that i can bet unimproved on the flop, i.e. big pairs. i want to stop raising AK and worse.6. i want to raise any pot which i enter, regardless of whether someone is behind me or not. maybe this means i should tighten up on what i play, but maybe not. maybe it just means i should fold low pp's and Axs from ep. if i can't raise it, then i can't play it.as you can see, these experiments range from making myself a maniac to making myself a rock. but, i think i can learn a lot from it.obviously, some are more practical than others. and obviously, i don't think i have the time or interest to do all six of these things one by one, since i obviously want reasonable sample sizes for all of them (at least 10k hands?).anyway, i'm just rambling. just tossing some ideas out there, and maybe if any of you are interested, you can feel free to experiment on an aspect or two and post your thoughts/results/whatever in this thread. if i decide to do one of these things anytime soon, i will do the same.aseem

[Mattnxtc]

welcome to the world of the slap player...its a fun time haha :lol:a few of those items are things ive added to my game too lately except that i still raise ak haha...but yeah i found that i much more enjoyed never open limping at all...so I have been raising more marginal hands (i.e. high suited connectors from mp and what not) and from the co or button ive been raising /3betting a lot more interesting hands and so far im maintaining a 3bb/100 average over 4k+ hands

[Actuary]

Aseem,i'm speechlesssaying TPMM now is too obvious.sounds like you want to prove Miller/Mallmuth and Sklansky right/wrong. Don't you have a degree to persue?Why do you obsess so much over this kinda stuff?you amuse and worry me, both

[speedz99]

Quote

2. completely overvalue suited connectors. that is, i raise 87s first in, 54s on the button, three-bet 76s instead of cold-calling, liberally cap with JTs and T9s.

I do this when I'm steaming. I hate to say it...but it has worked for me. Huge value when you hit and easy to get away from when you don't. But I still only do it to tilt for a while.

[Mattnxtc]

speedz99 said:

Quote

2. completely overvalue suited connectors. that is, i raise 87s first in, 54s on the button, three-bet 76s instead of cold-calling, liberally cap with JTs and T9s.

I do this when I'm steaming. I hate to say it...but it has worked for me. Huge value when you hit and easy to get away from when you don't. But I still only do it to tilt for a while.

I agree...if im going to be first in im raising any hand i have. This has worked 3 fold for me. 1. I can bluff if high cards hit as people assume i raised with high cards2. If i hit a monster with my lower cards nobody thinks i have it b/c i raised preflop3. Marginal cards can be easier to get away from when played back atand 1&2 definately outweigh 3 right now

[speedz99]

I agree for the most part...but how often can you really run a successful bluff at these limits? I have found that if I'm going to do this I have to be willing to stay away from bluffing unless I'm almost positive it's the perfect situation.

[econ_tim]

Aseem,I've talked with you about the experiment I've did with my short-handed play last week. I don't want to get into the details here, but I basically played a completely mechanical weak/tight game at .5/1 six max. I was surprised that the strategy actually lost very little. The main leaks of the strategy were not raising a lot of good hands preflop, and limping with some ok hands out of position. Postflop, the player was weak and chased a few too many draws. I know the results for this type of play would differ at 1/2 or 3/6 or 10/20, but at .5/1, I found that hand selection counts for a lot, and being very passive doesn't lose much money. This has led me too believe that I'm probably erring on the side of too much aggression in these soft six-max games. I've toned down some of the raising and check/raising in my normal game and I'll see what happens.

[Sysvr4]

Might I make a suggestion...Rather than try a live experiment complete with real money, why not regression test your ideas on your current database of hands? Something like the following should work...a) convert PT database to postgresqlB) start psql serverc) write perl script with DBD/DBI to connect to serverd) write functions of custom queries over hand ranges, betting patterns, etc. This is the meat of your experiment. Test whatever you want and estimate your results based on what you know from the databasee) profit! To do it live is going to take another 100k hands played with some degree of stability and consistancy. Your an MIT boy... use science man!Jeff

[akishore]

hey jeff,i have zero experience with that stuff. aseem

[project240]

I feel like I have to do something along these same lines akishore. For the last 2 months, my game has felt so weak. I go through the same motions all the time, but lately it just hasn't been working for me. I'm normally a $3/6 or $2/4 player, not big stakes... I try to get in about 20ish/hours per week, sometimes more. Lately, I have been thriving off tournaments, which has helped to keep my bankroll above ground. Anyways, my limit game has suffered immensely (sp?). After dropping about 600BB at $3/6, I dropped down to $2/4, proceeded to lose another 450BB there before dropping down to $1/2. After tilting (can you call it tilt when it happen weeks later) off another couple hundred BBs here, I moved down yet again and still can't beat .50/1.00. I'm embarassed to say I actually play poker right now. Fortunately, I have cashed in a couple tournaments ($1200/$900/$1680) during this extended downswing so my bankroll isn't completely gone yet, however, I feel like if I don't change something then I might as well quit for now. Poker has been profitable for me for 18 months of online play, this is my 1st really extended down time and it is making me sick. I'm not really sure if I should be changing my gamestyle, which has stayed very similar for a very long time. I've reread almost every book I own (SS2, theory of poker, low limit-jones, advanced poker, etc, etc) but I can't really say it's helping right now.I'm taking this week off (other than Saturday to play in a couple bigger tourneys) and am going to play a lot of Xbox to get my mind off this. I know none of you have really seen me play, but do you think I should be altering my game, trying something new?Any input is greatly appreciated.A dejected pro240

[Mattnxtc]

pro240 - 1. do you have poker tracker? if so what are your stats? 2. start posting some of ur hands so that we can look at how ur playing...its usually a lot easier for others to see ur flaws3. what books have you read?

[psujohn]

Sysvr4 said:

d) write functions of custom queries over hand ranges, betting patterns, etc. This is the meat of your experiment. Test whatever you want and estimate your results based on what you know from the database

The problem is finding enough hands where he's already done this. Some of these we can estimate - it wouldn't be too hard to calculate how much you "spend" playing suited connectors and how much you "earn" playing suited connectors and figure out if playing only big cards and pairs would be more/less profitable. A lot of the other propositions though would be hard to test based off an existing database.Perhaps you could setup simulations using some of the poker software. I have the wilson software though I haven't used it much. You can set it up to do stuff like only give you hands worth calling/raising pre-flop which helps you estimate a lot more hands a lot quicker. I don't know enough about the software to know if you can set it up to automatically play out some of these proposed variations.Overall though I suspect that the reason standard plays are standard is because they really are best against typical opponents.

[DDiabolical]

We don't raise with 66 because we want people in the pot. We want them to make top pair when we flop a set, we want as many people in as possible because regardless of what they have once we make a set that 1 in 8 times we know we're going to be way ahead most of the time.With AK we're far more likely to just pick up top pair, so we need to be aggressive preflop to stop that 64o checking the BB and flopping 2 pair.

[project240]

Sorry Akishore....I just realized I jacked your thread... didn't mean to do that, so I made a new thread.My apologies.pro240http://fullcontactpo...p=545142#545142