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#21 Davin

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 03:23 PM

HurricaneKyle said:

No, no and no. Raise this! If he is crazy and aggressive make him pay more for the next card. If he has an ace, he is calling in a shorthanded game. Opponents make mistakes when you are forcing them to put more money in the pot when they almost certainly have the worst of it. Those mistakes are money in your pocket. It can be very costly to let him see the turn without putting in a little more money. In my opinion, its almost always a mistake to slowplay a hand that is less than a set unless your reads are really on.
aggressive doesnt mean stupidim aggressive, i'd bet this flop w/ j10. but if i were raised, i'd foldif my opponent just called, i'd lead out on the turn again bc i'd expect my opponent to have raised w/ an ace. and even if he had an ace, i might be able to push him off it. if he's aggressive, give him the rope to hang himself. if he had an ace, he might call the flop raise, he might not. but he'll surely lead the turn if we just called on the flop.

#22 Davin

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 03:29 PM

actually, there is no one correct way to play this hand. it really depends on your playing stay as much as your opponentsif you're weak-tight, or tag. calling is the way to go on the flop (as your opponent would be more inclined to bet the turn bc of your passiveness on the flop)if you're much more aggressive, leaning towards lag, i would raise this flop since you might get played back w/ an unbelieving weak aceit really depends as much on your style as your opponents but w/ a lag opponent, i think a call is still the best course of action.

#23 TJ_Eckleburg

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 03:37 PM

Davin, you really like contradicting me it seems.Raising is better, in this situation, and in similar situations against unknowns.If the cost of "maximizing value" is that he'll sometimes spike a Q and our hero can't get away from top two, then that costs us a lot of money, doesn't it?Heads up in position people like to mess around. When messing around is what ends up breaking us, don't reinforce the messing around. Return to simplicity, and play more basic, tight/aggressive poker.Raise the flop. It adds value, makes gutshots that would have otherwise hit fold sometimes (valuable!), and gets you more information than calling does.All those things and other things I won't mention for the purposes of brevity all add up to raising being a better move than calling.Just because you CAN call and get paid off by huckle cards doesn't mean calling the flop is the best decision.Two pair is NOT a monster, kids. The sooner you all learn that the sooner you'll make more money. Two pair is the 3rd worst hand you can make.
Always bet like you've got a pair.

--Me

#24 pmc

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 04:00 PM

davin, yur not even an experienced player and u refuse to listen to experience. if DN says raise the flop, then i guess you'll listen to him but not someone who has been playing off and on for 20 years and playin professionally for the past 4 years. u remind me of a group of guys who used to play the local tournaments here in the bay area. i called them the nerd patrol. they were the type that limped in with pocket aces and kings and though they were really smart when they trapped people including myself with theyre terrible play. long story short, not one of them play anymore and i knew they wouldnt last. the cute moves only invite disaster that more importantly, can lead the average player into full blown tilt. everyone knows how to play decent these days. t.v. is educating the masses on how to play a game that on the most part, is not a very skillful or technical game. yes, i said it, its not a very skillful game. if u learn the abc's, follow a few simple guidelines and NEVER GO ON TILT, anyone can make money at this game. t.v. and books can give u all the info u need but it will never give u self control. i said it once and i'll say it again, top 2 in texas holdem is not really a hand to slow play, its a hand to play strong and protect. do u think i say this because i just want to argue and show how smart i am? go ask daniel and see what he says. as a matter of fact, i'll put up a post that will ask danny for his opinion. if i'm wrong, i quit poker. i been thinking about quitting professionally anyway. its a cool game but its not for everyone as a profession. u have to love the game. i dont love the game. its just a job with a lot of lows and some nice highs.

#25 Shizant

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 04:17 PM

pmc said:

well, the smooth call got him broke right? davin, i dont know who u r, i dont know what kind of player u r. yur from mit i notice and that gives me some indications. yur a smart guy, maybe too smart for poker. i played with u technical types for years. no doubt, yur absolutely right that when yur the favorite, u should invite action from a draw, BUT NOT WITH A SMOOTH CALL. raise just enough so that if he calls, he's getting the wrong odds to do so. so lets see, a pot size raise of 25 dollars should do the trick. but lets see, this is the kiddie small no limit game. the sucker says to himself, "what the hell, its 25 bucks more to me, i make that much per hour in the carpenters union so i call" the turn comes broadway and our top 2 man is married to his ace king and all his chips go to the sucker. now, i play the hand against the sucker and i jack him way up on the flop and give him the death stare.  he says to himself, " 50 or all in to try and hit my gutshot, i cant call, fold". i win the small pot, i am still playing, i am not rebuying because i got cute with a vulnerable hand. now, the most important point to this whole story. how strong a game r u going to play after dumping all yur chips because of yur smooth call? unless yur super mentally tough, u better go home and call it a day. these r the most important things that the technical types dont seem to factor. anyone here who thinks a smooth call in that spot is a good play is seriously mistaken. dont believe me? go ask old DN or some other big name and see what they say. this is a cash game people, not a tournament.
I agree with PMC here 100%! I too am a winning. I know exactly what PMC is talking about. This is not a tournament it's cash!!!! Take down the pot and move to the next hand. Check out my last post on this Thread as to why you make that all-in or $50 raise on the flop.It's kinda long but read all of it and all the posts if you want to know the prespective of a winning cash game player...Thread: http://fullcontactpo...pic.php?t=35699

#26 HurricaneKyle

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 04:17 PM

Quote

actually, there is no one correct way to play this hand. it really depends on your playing stay as much as your opponents  if you're weak-tight, or tag. calling is the way to go on the flop (as your opponent would be more inclined to bet the turn bc of your passiveness on the flop)  if you're much more aggressive, leaning towards lag, i would raise this flop since you might get played back w/ an unbelieving weak ace  it really depends as much on your style as your opponents  but w/ a lag opponent, i think a call is still the best course of action.
You are correct in saying there is no 'correct way' to play the hand. However there are shall we say more profitable ways to play a hand. Against a weak tight player, it would likely be correct to call this cold because he most likely has a strong but weaker ace. You could be almost certain he is drawing pretty thing. So in that case, calling the flop with the hope of drilling him on the turn isn't a bad idea. It is likely the most profitable way to play this hand.Against a loose wild eyed aggressive player, calling is rarely right because you have no way of knowing what he has. Against LAG's, its much better to raise to find out information because their bet really means nothing. Like you said LAGs aren't stupid, they'll bet with anything but they WON'T call with anything. Thats why its important to raise in this spot. Plus if you raise and he has an ace, you will still get action on 4th and 5th.And that last part is wrong, there is at least one post here every week about two pair Aces and Kings getting cracked because someone just called on the flop. If that is optimal play in this situation why do we keep seeing these posts?
"The lambs rarely slaughter the butcher."-Amarillo Slim

"Sometimes I play good, other I times I just run lucky."-Sam Farha


#27 Shizant

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 04:18 PM

pmc said:

well, the smooth call got him broke right? davin, i dont know who u r, i dont know what kind of player u r. yur from mit i notice and that gives me some indications. yur a smart guy, maybe too smart for poker. i played with u technical types for years. no doubt, yur absolutely right that when yur the favorite, u should invite action from a draw, BUT NOT WITH A SMOOTH CALL. raise just enough so that if he calls, he's getting the wrong odds to do so. so lets see, a pot size raise of 25 dollars should do the trick. but lets see, this is the kiddie small no limit game. the sucker says to himself, "what the hell, its 25 bucks more to me, i make that much per hour in the carpenters union so i call" the turn comes broadway and our top 2 man is married to his ace king and all his chips go to the sucker. now, i play the hand against the sucker and i jack him way up on the flop and give him the death stare.  he says to himself, " 50 or all in to try and hit my gutshot, i cant call, fold". i win the small pot, i am still playing, i am not rebuying because i got cute with a vulnerable hand. now, the most important point to this whole story. how strong a game r u going to play after dumping all yur chips because of yur smooth call? unless yur super mentally tough, u better go home and call it a day. these r the most important things that the technical types dont seem to factor. anyone here who thinks a smooth call in that spot is a good play is seriously mistaken. dont believe me? go ask old DN or some other big name and see what they say. this is a cash game people, not a tournament.
I agree with PMC here 100%! I too am a winning. I know exactly what PMC is talking about. This is not a tournament it's cash!!!! Take down the pot and move to the next hand. Check out my last post on this Thread as to why you make that all-in or $50 raise on the flop.It's kinda long but read all of it and all the posts if you want to know the prespective of a winning cash game player...Thread: http://fullcontactpo...pic.php?t=35699

#28 DrZebra

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 04:49 PM

TJ_Eckleburg said:

If the cost of "maximizing value" is that he'll sometimes spike a Q and our hero can't get away from top two, then that costs us a lot of money, doesn't it?
If by sometimes you mean 1/11.

Someguy said:

there is at least one post here every week about two pair Aces and Kings getting cracked because someone just called on the flop. If that is optimal play in this situation why do we keep seeing these posts?
People don't post that they hit AK, raised the flop and took down a tiny pot.

SomeOtherGuy said:

davin, yur not even an experienced player and u refuse to listen to experience
Care to play Davin heads up?My money's on Davin.PMC, any games in the Bay Area?

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 05:02 PM

DrZebra said:

TJ_Eckleburg said:

If the cost of "maximizing value" is that he'll sometimes spike a Q and our hero can't get away from top two, then that costs us a lot of money, doesn't it?
If by sometimes you mean 1/11.

Someguy said:

there is at least one post here every week about two pair Aces and Kings getting cracked because someone just called on the flop. If that is optimal play in this situation why do we keep seeing these posts?
People don't post that they hit AK, raised the flop and took down a tiny pot.

SomeOtherGuy said:

davin, yur not even an experienced player and u refuse to listen to experience
Care to play Davin heads up?My money's on Davin.PMC, any games in the Bay Area?
That is because they are happy they did not slow play and came out with the pot, moved on to another winning pot, then another, is this making sense now. __________________________________________Yimmet @ | Bodog | Poker Stars | Ultimate Bet

#30 pmc

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 05:03 PM

well it looks like they got some player haters running this forum. i posted the question to daniel but it got deleted. this is not a place to learn but a place to argue. thats why i dont go to forums. too many inexperienced people throwing in theyre incorrect 2 cents. i got to hear it from 50 cent no limiters about how this game is played. i say to fold pocket qq when yur facing 3 bets cold and u been running bad and yur sure the guy who made it 3 bets has pocket aces, and yet i still hear thats a bad move. its actually a winning player move to muck those pocket whores but what do i know? i say the best session i ever played was when i lost 700 playing 10/20 years ago and people just cant grasp the meaning of it. keep slow playin that top 2 pair and dont quit yur daytime job

#31 Davin

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 07:28 PM

im not gonna beat a dead horsei've already said that i can see why you would want to raise on the flop, but still stick to my stance that it wouldnt be max EV.and to pmc, you're right this place is to learn. this hand has been useful in discussing a common hand situation. BUT THIS IS NOT A PLACE TO BELITTLE OTHERS (like myself) BECAUSE YOU FEEL THAT YOU ARE SUPERIOR IN EVERY FASHION. YOU MAY HAVE GOOD ADVICE TO OFFER AND MUCH EXPERIENCE, BUT YOU COME OFF PRESUMPTUOUS AND POMPOUS. YOUR USELESS SELF PROMOTING REMARKS LENDS NOTHING TO THIS DISCUSSION NOR DOES IT PROVE ANYTHING BUT THAT YOU ARE INSECURE AND MUCH TOO PROUD TO LISTEN TO OTHERS. I HOPE YOU CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDE BC IF YOU TRULY ARE WHO YOU SAY, YOU HAVE MUCH TO OFFER TO US LITTLE "50 CENT NO LIMITERS". BUT UNTIL THEN, YOU ARE JUST ANOTHER DOUCHE BAG

#32 pmc

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 08:09 PM

right, a place to learn from inexperienced people. u guys dont know what yur up against. i saw a blog earlier about a guy who claims to be runnin terrible. lol, he's been running bad for 2 weeks. i felt like telling him it can go much longer but i just kept my mouth shut. davin yur a small limit player which tells me yur not experienced. also u got a big check list of what possible holdings this guy has and percentage this and e.v. that. but let me tell u something, in a card room, u dont have all day to go through the check list in yur head. even the friggin dealers will rush u. davin, u still have much to learn. i already told u to ask danny boy what the right answer is. or r u going to argue with him about the right play too? i'll give u and everyone else some more friendly advice. u raise that sucker hard on the flop and get him to break his draw. the next pot u r heads up with him, u better not bluff the guy because he WILL be coming after u. he'll never forget the way u jacked him up on the previous hand and he'll be dying to ring those chips out of u any way he can. thats experience talking

#33 Chief

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 09:02 PM

[double post]

#34 Chief

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 09:04 PM

Quote

also u got a big check list of what possible holdings this guy has and percentage this and e.v. that. but let me tell u something, in a card room, u dont have all day to go through the check list in yur head. even the friggin dealers will rush u.
HOH 1 + 2, Harrington advises making a checklist in your head actually. Certainly that's tournament play but it also applies for cash games of course. It doesn't take all that long.

Quote

u raise that sucker hard on the flop and get him to break his draw. the next pot u r heads up with him, u better not bluff the guy because he WILL be coming after u. he'll never forget the way u jacked him up on the previous hand and he'll be dying to ring those chips out of u any way he can. thats experience talking
I agree with you here pmc, that raising for metagame considerations has some validity (setting up future plays, in this case).In this example however, villain is a known loose player that plays fast post flop. I would personally c/c flop c/c turn, c/r all in on river. Let him make the pot bigger and bluff away his chips.

Hurricane Kyle said:

Against a loose wild eyed aggressive player, calling is rarely right because you have no way of knowing what he has. Against LAG's, its much better to raise to find out information because their bet really means nothing. Like you said LAGs aren't stupid, they'll bet with anything but they WON'T call with anything. Thats why its important to raise in this spot. Plus if you raise and he has an ace, you will still get action on 4th and 5th.
You're being a bit results oriented here. What kind of info do we want from this guy? In essence, by raising this flop, we shut out a majority of hands that opponent would continuation bluff with on the turn.We call the flop, we get lots of value from bluffs on the next street and get sucked out on a small percentage of the timeversusWe raise the flop, we get lots of value from a much smaller range of hands [now we could assume villain to at least have a pair of some sort or better if the raise was substantial], so we are shutting out all the garbage, but we take the pot down right here before the turn.on the off chance that we are facing a set on the flop, villain is doubling through us no matter what.calling is better -- thats my personal assessment of the situation.Also didn't Doyle say it best, when you are really strong, give them a chance to catch up a bit? ;)Best,Chief

#35 pmc

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 09:23 PM

ok, i'll start limping with pocket aces too. thanks for the info. yur right

#36 HurricaneKyle

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 09:27 PM

Quote

Also didn't Doyle say it best, when you are really strong, give them a chance to catch up a bit?
If the hand was better than two pair, then I agree. I'm not against calling against weak-tight opponents, but against a player who could have anything any turn card that isn't an Ace or King could be very dangerous. By slowplaying the next streets become more difficult to play more often than you would think, and you have failed to really find out what he has and get more money in the pot(when you almost certainly have the best hand). In limit, calling with the intention of raising on the turn would be the optimal play but its not a strong play against a really laggy NL player.So you are getting less money in and opening up the possibility of going broke, that isn't good in my opinion. Granted I'm being cynical, but this is what weak NL players do all the time: Slowplay a good but not unbeatable holding, then a tough card comes and they don't know where they are because they failed to take the lead on the flop , then they lose most of their money and complain about being unlucky when in fact they opened themselves up for that possibility. On top of that they aren't maximizing potential profit, how is that good?I was that guy a year ago, and trust me being overly aggressive against very aggressive players works. Losers let it happen, winners make it happen.

#37 pmc

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 09:47 PM

metagame considerations? what the hell is that? another mit guy. chief, look, yur a cool guy. yur obviouly not trying to start an argument. no one here has ever thought that maybe this supposed lag is going to check the turn, u bet, and he folds. yur smooth call risk gained u nothing. wheres the e.v. in that? raise the flop, raise the flop, raise the flop!!!!!!! u guys r too anylitical about an emotional game. u let the supposed lag do what he wants on the table, he's going to start connecting, then he's going to start winning and then guess what. heres where it gets really fun. HE'S GOING TO START PLAYING BETTER AND THEN START TO OUT PLAY U. u get this guy betting into u on the flop after u raised pre flop.....u got to punish him HARD for that. RAISE. hit him with a brick wall and shove his ego back into his seat or else he is going to interfere with u making money in the game. u guys just dont seem to understand these concepts because u guys either dont have enough experience or yur in self denial about being a winning player. u guys dont see the e.v. in slowing down the lag. u guys r too worried about maximizing off every winning hand. u let this guy skate and i guarentee, he will make it difficult for u to make money. i seen it too many times before. u got to punch him in the mouth with a raise any chance u can get.

#38 pmc

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 09:57 PM

hurricane has got it right. espeacially on his limit example.

#39 Chief

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 10:14 PM

Quote

ok, i'll start limping with pocket aces too. thanks for the info. yur right
8) Chief's Pro tip #47 8) : Lurk more before making an ass of yourself. Your play is suboptimal and it's my right to disagree and substantiate my opinion in a logical fashion. You are free to follow suit, and I will respect your opinion, whether I believe it correct or incorrect in this particular situation.If Daniel Negreanu or another professional poker player posts in this thread and agrees with you, and you'd feel subsequently vindicated so you "don't have to quit poker" -- the more power to you my friend. I'm interested in hearing what he has to say along with other contributors in the NL forums. Whether they agree with me or disagree with me, I take something from the argument. You on the other hand, seem in dire need of some ego padding.I advise you go watch some episodes of Tilt, walk into the bathroom, and look into the mirror while saying "I'm All in ... I call!" ten times in rapid succession. Problem solved.

Quote

So you are getting less money in and opening up the possibility of going broke, that isn't good in my opinion Granted I'm being cynical, but this is what weak NL players do all the time: Slowplay a good but not unbeatable holding, then a tough card comes and they don't know where they are because they failed to take the lead on the flop , then they lose most of their money and complain about being unlucky when in fact they opened themselves up for that possibility.
We are getting more money in, just on one later street with a juicy turn raise. I'm not sure what you mean by tough card ... the only realistic tough card I see the turn bringing is a 7.

#40 Chief

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 10:25 PM

pmc said:

u got to punish him HARD for that. RAISE. hit him with a brick wall and shove his ego back into his seat or else he is going to interfere with u making money in the game
I am punishing the LAG for this by providing him with enough rope to hang himself. If he is comfortable zipping around firing barrels OOP then I'm going to let him do what he is comfortable with and play his style. I am not trying to take him out of his comfort zone when I am this strong.I don't know where his ego will be upon hand's completion but I do know it likely won't be elevated if he loses the hand. But what do we care if he has a high ego? Rope-a-dope ™ baby, all night long.




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