13 replies to this topic

[jayboogie]

I just wanted to create a topic for strategy for shorthanded play and in particular against an opponent who will donk bet into you after you raise almost all the time. Honestly, it's an amazingly annoying strategy for me to deal with and probably the style that befuddles me the most. I play a lot of headsup and shorthanded LHE and it seems to be happening more and more against me.As you know you can only hit pairs so often and when you raise to steal and get donk bet into when you miss the flop, it sucks having to fold your hand. It's also tough to be playing your Ace High when donk bet into as well as your opponent may have a pair and be betting that. The good thing of course is if you do hit a hand, you can get paid off.Against a particular opponent tonight, I got donk bet into about 80% of the time after raising. He had me down quite a bit at first, before I was able to hit a few hands and get paid off by his strategy. It did become increasingly annoying when he would constantly bet out with an Ace on the flop and not allow me to even represent it. Of course sometimes he'd have it, sometimes he wouldn't, but it was pretty difficult to determine a course of action without getting a piece of the flop.So, I propose the question: What is the optimal strategy against donk bets? Personally, what I found myself doing was calling a lot more with any pair, bluffing every once in a while to keep in honest and also raising with a wide range of hands so they could be better disguised and I could surprise him when he donk bets with rags like he was doing.

[akishore]

damn jay, i wholeheartedly agree that this is one of the most annoying things to deal with.i call down with anything better than (and including) ace-ish high and raise all day with anything better than second-ish/top-ish pair.aseem

[rwood]

i know what you are talking about, and i actually employ it sometimes when i play, because it does throw people off...depending on the player...anyways i usually am an aggressor whenever in a hand, so i like to keep my lead, if i still feel my hand is best, i raise- if i still feel i can win the pot with a raise or bet later, i raise. with my Ax, i call down depending on texture, as sometime it is better to call down so that you dont lose an extra bet reraising, or scare off a worse hand with a reraise. i always like to remember that our holecards miss flops 2/3'rds of the time and that a scare card to you is also USUALLY a scare card to another player. if you have this player pegged as a donk calling station, you know dont bluff/always value bet, if over aggressive, raise less/call more. i dunno, this is basic, play somewhat straightforward to start out, then once you get his betting patterns/playing styles, then start mixing it up in places that you see can bet taken advantage of. gl at the tables.cheers.ryan.

[doublemeup]

i think this is the most befuddling thing to aggressive players. When i'm in a pot, i like to be the aggressor and when somebody takes that away from me, i'm not a happy camper. I don't like these donk bets but i agree to call them with A high and raise with any pair. I was playing against a guy yesterday heads up and i beat him 3 straight times. I'd let him steal when i didn't have ace high or a pair but when i did have a pair, i would raise and get paid off.

[Hubris]

I don't mind adapting to this type of play - its actually one of my favorite kind of people to play against. The style is fairly straight forward - let him have pots, but keep them as small as possible. Just wait until he does it when you have a playable hand, and then suck him dry. You will lose money occasionally when he happens to hit a great hand when you hit a good one, but you will win alot more money when you hit a great hand and he hits a good one. You will also win more money when you have a hand and he doesn't (more money than the he'll win when he has a hand and you don't).So, lets overview....Opponent wins money when:- You don't have a good hand -> Wins a very small pot- You get a good hand, and he gets a better one -> Average pot (if you decide to call down with mediocre hands, which you should if he's very aggressive)- You get a great hand and he gets a better one -> Large potYou win money when:- You have a good hand and he doesn't -> Average pot- You have a good hand and he has a slightly worse one -> Large pot- You have a great hand and he does to, but his hand is slightly worse -> Very Large PotAll if you have to do is mix it up a little bit, and try to get some reads off his style of play and you should benefit from these kind of players in the long run. I also find that check-raising these types of players works consistently well. As they are donkeys they greatly fear a check-raise. It's a great way to make some money out of your good hands and bluff off your bad ones.

[Suited_Up]

Just an idea....See how he reacts to a flat call on the flop, then a raise on the turn.Do it with any hand, I would imagine he goes away at that point without a real hand. Not something you can do every hand, but something to throw in if you want to steal away a little bit bigger pot once in awhile.This is untested, but I just think it might have some use.

[jayboogie]

Some good replies posted so far, keep them coming.I would pretty much agree with what everyone says here and have been playing that style for the most part. The thing was when he bet into me, I didn't have all that much fold equity for the most part, because usually he was going to see a showdown, maybe it was a hot run of cards or something, but he seemed to hit the flop everytime and at least pair up.I don't neccessary think these opponents are difficult to play against, it's just not your common average opponent that you play against headsup or shorthanded.

[jayboogie]

Suited_Up said:

Just an idea....See how he reacts to a flat call on the flop, then a raise on the turn.Do it with any hand, I would imagine he goes away at that point without a real hand. Not something you can do every hand, but something to throw in if you want to steal away a little bit bigger pot once in awhile.This is untested, but I just think it might have some use.

I was usually making this play when I had some kind of draw at least where I'd have outs at the very least. Maybe once in a while with nothing I would do this just to mix things up.

[doublemeup]

jayboogie said:

Some good replies posted so far, keep them coming.I would pretty much agree with what everyone says here and have been playing that style for the most part. The thing was when he bet into me, I didn't have all that much fold equity for the most part, because usually he was going to see a showdown, maybe it was a hot run of cards or something, but he seemed to hit the flop everytime and at least pair up.I don't neccessary think these opponents are difficult to play against, it's just not your common average opponent that you play against headsup or shorthanded.

i don't think they're a common opponent and they can be hard to play against if you dont catch any cards and your opponent does. other than that, they aren't that hard to play against. confusing, but not hard.

[LuckyMcCatcher]

doublemeup said:

jayboogie said:

Some good replies posted so far, keep them coming.I would pretty much agree with what everyone says here and have been playing that style for the most part. The thing was when he bet into me, I didn't have all that much fold equity for the most part, because usually he was going to see a showdown, maybe it was a hot run of cards or something, but he seemed to hit the flop everytime and at least pair up.I don't neccessary think these opponents are difficult to play against, it's just not your common average opponent that you play against headsup or shorthanded.

i don't think they're a common opponent and they can be hard to play against if you dont catch any cards and your opponent does. other than that, they aren't that hard to play against. confusing, but not hard.

This is exactly right. In shlhe if someone is running particularly well you are at the mercy of the cards. Just try to focus on making the correct play in each spot and not on beating your opponent. Running bad sh is very tough, because you either take a bunch of bad beats in succession or you get outflopped every time. Since these situations are equally frustrating you must try really really hard to maintain your composure or you will lose your edge to tilt. With an opponent like this I would suggest testing him early by flat calling flop and popping the turn. I would do this 2 or 3 times w/ whatever I have. Two things will happen. He will either fold and you will pick up pot unimproved, or he will win and think you are a maniac. EIther of these two scenarios are fine, because either he becomes scared take the lead from you, or you always get your made hands paid off.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

Haven't read replies.As a very general idea... I think someone acting very predictably is a weakness... because it can be exploited if you KNOW they have a high percentage of doing something.I also think when you're running bad (or confused frequently by a recurring play) it's best to stop overthinking and return to the basics.Be more likely to give him credit for a hand when you don't have a hand. Be less likely to give him credit for a hand when you DO have a hand.Tight, but aggressive. Fold overs and 2nd pairs and wa/wb, raise good draws and pairs.

[jayboogie]

TJ_Eckleburg said:

Haven't read replies.As a very general idea... I think someone acting very predictably is a weakness... because it can be exploited if you KNOW they have a high percentage of doing something.I also think when you're running bad (or confused frequently by a recurring play) it's best to stop overthinking and return to the basics.Be more likely to give him credit for a hand when you don't have a hand. Be less likely to give him credit for a hand when you DO have a hand.Tight, but aggressive. Fold overs and 2nd pairs and wa/wb, raise good draws and pairs.

While, it should be exploitable if somebody does something repeatedly, this is a little bit different, because he would donk bet when he had a strong hand, average hand and weak hand, so he did actually mix up what he was doing in a way.I don't agree with folding 2nd pair, because 2nd pair with a decent kicker is usually the best hand, even bottom pair is going to win you a fair share of pots. I don't think neccessarily playing tight is ideal either, because I'd get run over and have pots constantly stolen from me. I'm not going to make pairs all that often, which means my opponent won't either, so I'll need to make a play here and there to steal my fair share of pots as well.

[jayboogie]

LuckyMcCatcher said:

doublemeup said:

jayboogie said:

Some good replies posted so far, keep them coming.I would pretty much agree with what everyone says here and have been playing that style for the most part. The thing was when he bet into me, I didn't have all that much fold equity for the most part, because usually he was going to see a showdown, maybe it was a hot run of cards or something, but he seemed to hit the flop everytime and at least pair up.I don't neccessary think these opponents are difficult to play against, it's just not your common average opponent that you play against headsup or shorthanded.

i don't think they're a common opponent and they can be hard to play against if you dont catch any cards and your opponent does. other than that, they aren't that hard to play against. confusing, but not hard.

This is exactly right. In shlhe if someone is running particularly well you are at the mercy of the cards. Just try to focus on making the correct play in each spot and not on beating your opponent. Running bad sh is very tough, because you either take a bunch of bad beats in succession or you get outflopped every time. Since these situations are equally frustrating you must try really really hard to maintain your composure or you will lose your edge to tilt. With an opponent like this I would suggest testing him early by flat calling flop and popping the turn. I would do this 2 or 3 times w/ whatever I have. Two things will happen. He will either fold and you will pick up pot unimproved, or he will win and think you are a maniac. EIther of these two scenarios are fine, because either he becomes scared take the lead from you, or you always get your made hands paid off.

I also like the flat call on the flop and raise on the turn as a counter strategy against this particular opponent, it's probably the most effective strategy against this type of opponent. You really need to be able to handle swings if you play SH though, swings of 100 big bets in a session are not uncommon especially if multi-tabling. If you can stop yourself from tilting when playing shorthanded, you should have no problem stopping yourself from tilting in a full ring game.

[SomethingWicked]

Jay great topic and good replies. I think I've tried every strategy I know of and still get smacked around by donk bets. The best thing I've been able to do was mentioned above and that is to keep their pots small. Raising with good draws and value bets. Many of these donk betters will fall for disinfo. but they will be hard pressed to fold even bottom pair. Patience is still best tactic I can deploy. =/ I got crushed this weekend by donks. Its sad to say but true and hard to swallow. I guess I had been playing limit hold em far to long and had the disillusion that when I stepped up and played a higher game that the same donks would not follow... much to my shagrin. However I played great considering I never won a pot. I.E. folding pocket queens heads up on the flop to K 3 when its a 300 dollar pot preflop and got smacked by a K 3 2 flop. What kind of a donk re-raises with K3 preflop against a tight player's initial raise and 1 loose/agg caller.... a damn lucky one.Bah, anyway I've notice there are a ton of players who play lhe and not many who even posses anykind of skill for the game' which usually leads to taking a loss when you run bad. I'd like to hear more opinions on this..