18 replies to this topic

[screech]

Table was playing tight. Usually only 2-3 to a flop.Both players in this hand are tight (VPIP ~15) with flashes of aggression (AF 1.5-2). Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: FancyBoy is MP2 with Q:club:, K:spade:. 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.Flop: (6 SB) 8:diamond:, 4:diamond:, 7:diamond: (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, FancyBoy bets, SB calls, BB calls.Turn: (4.50 BB) 2:spade: (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, FancyBoy checks.River: (4.50 BB) 7:heart: (3 players)SB checks, BB betsThere are only 15 river cards that I'm raising. I'm only raising if BB bets.+EV or -EV?

[Sysvr4]

I just fold unless I have a very good read that tells me he's the type that can fold to a river bluff raise. Four-tabling I rarely get that good a read, so like I said, I fold.UnFancy Jeff

[amarillotg]

swoosh! <--- the sound of my cards hitting the muck.

[screech]

If BB folds 27% of the time I show a profit.The turn and river cards are unlikely to have helped him. If he had nothing but a flush draw on the flop, he has nothing but a flush draw now.

[Sysvr4]

screech said:

If BB folds 27% of the time I show a profit.

That's just it, I don't see a villain bet/fold on the river 27% of the time. If he folded, good for you. But I'd say about 5% of players are capable of the river bet/fold and most of them will only do it under very specific circumstances.Jeff

[screech]

Jeff,How often do you think villian has a made hand on the river? It really seems like he's drawing on the flop, no?

[KDawgCometh]

what are their WtSD%'s, what are their rivver ag factors, how often have you seen them fold, why on earth aren't you finding better 5/10 full tables, USE POKERACE AND DATAMINE

[Nutcracker]

screech said:

Jeff,How often do you think villian has a made hand on the river? It really seems like he's drawing on the flop, no?

He could just as easily have a strong made hand, looking to c/r the turn. He could also have a 7 and play it this way, or any pair + high diamond.

[Sysvr4]

screech said:

How often do you think villian has a made hand on the river? It really seems like he's drawing on the flop, no?

Yeah, maybe. Or he could have been looking to c/r you on the turn but I'll grant you that's less likely. If you had bet the turn I think we could say with more certainty that he's drawing or not. I think a smallish pocket pair and lots of other made hands play this way, too.I do hope you post results after all the folks weigh in. FPS results are always more interesting than ABC poker results :)Jeff

[screech]

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what are their WtSD%'s, what are their rivver ag factors, how often have you seen them fold, why on earth aren't you finding better 5/10 full tables, USE POKERACE AND DATAMINE

I spend all my datamining time at 3/6 6. This was the first time I played 5/10 full. I wanted to see what the game was like.On a whole, the table seemed to be playing tight/cautious. There was aggression, but people quickly backed off if they got played back at.

[screech]

Nutcracker said:

screech said:

Jeff,How often do you think villian has a made hand on the river? It really seems like he's drawing on the flop, no?

He could just as easily have a strong made hand, looking to c/r the turn. He could also have a 7 and play it this way, or any pair + high diamond.

I think a strong hand c/r's that flop (a pair + a high diamond being a strong made hand). He could have a seven, but that doesn't concern me too much.I planned to give up after the flop. The only reasons for making this play were:1) The turn and river cards were unlikely to improve anyone2) Both my opponents could have draws/weak made hands on the flop3) SB probably doesn't like his hand too much after he checks the riverAll of these conditions had to be met for me to consider making this play.

[screech]

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I think a smallish pocket pair and lots of other made hands play this way, too.

I may be able to make this guy lay down a weak made hand. Like I said, the general feel of the table was one of caution.

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FPS results are always more interesting than ABC poker results

I agree. Unfortunately they're also a lot more difficult to judge as good/bad.

[KDawgCometh]

screech said:

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what are their WtSD%'s, what are their rivver ag factors, how often have you seen them fold, why on earth aren't you finding better 5/10 full tables, USE POKERACE AND DATAMINE

I spend all my datamining time at 3/6 6. This was the first time I played 5/10 full. I wanted to see what the game was like.On a whole, the table seemed to be playing tight/cautious. There was aggression, but people quickly backed off if they got played back at.

you're using seperate databases right. you should never mix short handed stats with full stats

[steve7stud]

If you checked the turn, when a really meaningless card came, betting or raising the river looks like a bluff. The other player could easily have hit a pair on the flop, and I personally would call with Ace high on the river. I just don't see the point of checking the turn, and then check raising the river.

[screech]

steve7stud said:

If you checked the turn, when a really meaningless card came, betting or raising the river looks like a bluff. The other player could easily have hit a pair on the flop, and I personally would call with Ace high on the river. I just don't see the point of checking the turn, and then check raising the river.

Good to see you posting in strat steve. :-) I realized that my raise would look like an obvious bluff. However, I felt that since my turn check would induce a river bluff, there was a high chance that the river bettor was bluffing himself (this is especially likely since the flop was all diamonds). I also felt that even if these players realized I was bluffing, they wouldn't call with A high or reraise with a worse hand. This is based on the table feel, and how tight my opponents seeemed to be playing.After I raised, my opponents did in fact fold. I felt on top of the world for a few seconds, but then started to think that I had spewed a bit and gotten lucky. Even though they did fold, it could be the 1/15th time things actually work out. I really had no idea whether it was good or bad. I still stubbornly defend hands I think I may have played poorly, because it generates better discussion.BTW, how does everyone feel about the turn check?

[steve7stud]

I would bet the turn, because you don't have a diamond. You want to make people pay to keep drawing. You "might" have the best hand. But when a blank falls on the turn, I don't see the point in checking. I personally like to keep the pressure on.

[screech]

steve7stud said:

I would bet the turn, because you don't have a diamond. You want to make people pay to keep drawing. You "might" have the best hand. But when a blank falls on the turn, I don't see the point in checking. I personally like to keep the pressure on.

Thanks steve.

[akishore]

i think this is fairly bad. you need at least SOME hand to pull these river raises (attempting to knock out a player behind you), because in my experience, players who bluff the river will habitually call with ace high even. nobody is folding a better hand, imo, but i could be wrong.further, i think your turn check was pretty bad. check with outs, bet without them. easy turn bet, if you get c/r, easy turn fold since you probably didn't have many outs at all.aseem

[steve7stud]

akishore said:

i think this is fairly bad. you need at least SOME hand to pull these river raises (attempting to knock out a player behind you), because in my experience, players who bluff the river will habitually call with ace high even. nobody is folding a better hand, imo, but i could be wrong.further, i think your turn check was pretty bad. check with outs, bet without them. easy turn bet, if you get c/r, easy turn fold since you probably didn't have many outs at all.aseem

Not sure how I feel about Aseem regurgitating what I've already said.