15 replies to this topic

[Mattnxtc]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is Button with [Kd], [Qd]. MP1 posts a blind of $1. MP2 posts a blind of $1. CO posts a blind of $1.50. 2 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.Flop: (21.50 SB) [9h], [Tc], [4s] (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.Turn: (10.75 BB) [6s] (5 players)SB bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.River: (15.75 BB) [Jh] (5 players)SB bets, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.Final Pot: 27.75 BBnot much to the hand thats odd....the CO is the one who really helped me as he gave me odds to draw the whole hand...im fairly certain i played the hand right...was a little hesitant on whether to try to clean up some outs on the flop though

[akishore]

yeah, i'd say you definitely need to bet the flop. sb raising here is ideal.aseem

[Nutcracker]

Do you really think you'll be cleaning up any outs on the flop though? There's a fairly good chance you're up against either AA or KK (or even QQ) with sb 3-betting and CO limp/capping. Of course, the CO limp/cap could mean a variety of hands at this level. Still, I think most are going to call with AK in this pot, so our only out cleanup is against AQ, and it's questionable if that improves our chances to win much at all, as there is a decent chance we're u against an overpair or set already. I'd rather draw at the gutshot as cheaply as possible at this point.

[MrNiceGuy]

akishore said:

yeah, i'd say you definitely need to bet the flop. sb raising here is ideal.aseem

I'm not sure - in this huge pot, people may figure they have odds to chase 5-outers even if they're faced with two cold - I'm inclined to just take the free card on the flop....

[Mattnxtc]

well on the flop anybody drawing to a 2 outer has odds as it was 20-1...my initial read was to check b/c i knew i only had 4 outs to the nuts and then had a couple if my overs were clean. i do think that there coudl be a case for both though i am not sure which is better...of course in hindsight id like to have built the pot but i havent done the math yet to see which one is more ev

[jrbick]

Mattnxtc said:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is Button with [Kd], [Qd]. MP1 posts a blind of $1. MP2 posts a blind of $1. CO posts a blind of $1.50. 2 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.Flop: (21.50 SB) [9h], [Tc], [4s] (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.Turn: (10.75 BB) [6s] (5 players)SB bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.River: (15.75 BB) [Jh] (5 players)SB bets, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.Final Pot: 27.75 BBnot much to the hand thats odd....the CO is the one who really helped me as he gave me odds to draw the whole hand...im fairly certain i played the hand right...was a little hesitant on whether to try to clean up some outs on the flop though

The action on the flop tells me that I have more than just 4 outs. At least .5 outs for Ks and Qs. [/b]

[Mattnxtc]

see i wasnt exactly how my overs were goign to play in this particular hand...my overs are vulnerable to so many overpair combinations that i didnt put a lot of weight into them. I was much more concerned with making sure I had outs to draw to the gutshot since that would have given me the nuts

[jrbick]

Mattnxtc said:

see i wasnt exactly how my overs were goign to play in this particular hand...my overs are vulnerable to so many overpair combinations that i didnt put a lot of weight into them. I was much more concerned with making sure I had outs to draw to the gutshot since that would have given me the nuts

Fair enough. That's why we give them .5 outs though in this Multi-way pot. Hitting a K or Q will at least get you to showdown. It's tough to put anyone on hands that make sense given all the checking on the flop. What were your reads on all of the opponents, especially CO?

[Roughness]

Is folding preflop real bad here? Not saying you did the wrong thing, just honestly wanna know. AQ/AK seems to be in play ? Does the fact that there are 3 posters change our opinion a lot? Under normal circumstances (no posters) what's the best play here? Personally I don't think calling a couple more preflop is so bad, but don't we get in trouble when the flop comes with a king or queen, or even worse something like AK2r? I've heard Tom McEvoy say that the money lost preflop is often insignificant playing marginal hands, it's the money lost after the flop that counts. I'm paraphrasing here, and probably got it wrong though. Opinions?

[Abbaddabba]

KQs isnt marginal; certainly not in a multiway pot. You probably have an equity edge against the field. Just the straight and flush potential alone is enough to justify being in this pot.If the flop comes A/K/2, you'd have to be a fool to lose anything meaningful. You'll probably either folding the flop, or calling a bet on the flop and folding the turn UI.

[CobaltBlue]

Roughness, we've got a hand that plays well multi-way. While we're certainly not thrilled that there's so much action (as we could easily be dominated), we're getting some nice odds with a decent hand in the best position. That said, if it were KQo, I'd be tempted to dump it when it's two back.Post-flop, if we only have a pair, we're proceeding cautiously, I think.

[screech]

akishore said:

yeah, i'd say you definitely need to bet the flop. sb raising here is ideal.aseem

Why?What does sb raise with? How many opponents are going to fold? What kind of hands will they stay in with?I think you should just take the free card.

[Canada]

Roughness said:

Is folding preflop real bad here? Not saying you did the wrong thing, just honestly wanna know. AQ/AK seems to be in play ? Does the fact that there are 3 posters change our opinion a lot? Under normal circumstances (no posters) what's the best play here? Personally I don't think calling a couple more preflop is so bad, but don't we get in trouble when the flop comes with a king or queen, or even worse something like AK2r? I've heard Tom McEvoy say that the money lost preflop is often insignificant playing marginal hands, it's the money lost after the flop that counts. I'm paraphrasing here, and probably got it wrong though. Opinions?

It was the cutoff who capped it. With the way the preflop played out his cap is pointless and can be ignored. (It went check-check to him and he just checked)The SB 3-bet could be made with a lot weaker hand with 3 posters and a big blind in the hand - ie tons of dead moneyAlso with 5 players in and no chance for a reraise you are getting nearly 10-1 to call with a very good drawing hand.Under these unique circumstances I would be even calling 45 off there - just don't know how I would get there in the first place with 45o lol

[Mattnxtc]

Roughness said:

Is folding preflop real bad here? Not saying you did the wrong thing, just honestly wanna know. AQ/AK seems to be in play ? Does the fact that there are 3 posters change our opinion a lot? Under normal circumstances (no posters) what's the best play here? Personally I don't think calling a couple more preflop is so bad, but don't we get in trouble when the flop comes with a king or queen, or even worse something like AK2r? I've heard Tom McEvoy say that the money lost preflop is often insignificant playing marginal hands, it's the money lost after the flop that counts. I'm paraphrasing here, and probably got it wrong though. Opinions?

kqs isnt marginal..is one of the stronger hands. If you check out sshe then ull find that it is one of the few that can actually be 3bet from some positions and one of the few that can be raised from all positions. If you arent raising it then you are probably losing bets

[Roughness]

Mattnxtc said:

Roughness said:

Is folding preflop real bad here? Not saying you did the wrong thing, just honestly wanna know. AQ/AK seems to be in play ? Does the fact that there are 3 posters change our opinion a lot? Under normal circumstances (no posters) what's the best play here? Personally I don't think calling a couple more preflop is so bad, but don't we get in trouble when the flop comes with a king or queen, or even worse something like AK2r? I've heard Tom McEvoy say that the money lost preflop is often insignificant playing marginal hands, it's the money lost after the flop that counts. I'm paraphrasing here, and probably got it wrong though. Opinions?

kqs isnt marginal..is one of the stronger hands. If you check out sshe then ull find that it is one of the few that can actually be 3bet from some positions and one of the few that can be raised from all positions. If you arent raising it then you are probably losing bets

Don't get me wrong, i know KQs is strong. I just meant it might be more of a marginal holding in this situation, if that makes any sense. I'm never limping with KQs, but when people are playing this aggressive I get a little worried. I think you're often up against AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ, any of which really hurt you. I'm not saying folding is the correct play, but when I think about it, it doesn't seem *that* bad. We're getting very good odds though, I guess the flush potential alone could make up for being dominated.

[Mattnxtc]

Roughness said:

Mattnxtc said:

Roughness said:

Is folding preflop real bad here? Not saying you did the wrong thing, just honestly wanna know. AQ/AK seems to be in play ? Does the fact that there are 3 posters change our opinion a lot? Under normal circumstances (no posters) what's the best play here? Personally I don't think calling a couple more preflop is so bad, but don't we get in trouble when the flop comes with a king or queen, or even worse something like AK2r? I've heard Tom McEvoy say that the money lost preflop is often insignificant playing marginal hands, it's the money lost after the flop that counts. I'm paraphrasing here, and probably got it wrong though. Opinions?

kqs isnt marginal..is one of the stronger hands. If you check out sshe then ull find that it is one of the few that can actually be 3bet from some positions and one of the few that can be raised from all positions. If you arent raising it then you are probably losing bets

Don't get me wrong, i know KQs is strong. I just meant it might be more of a marginal holding in this situation, if that makes any sense. I'm never limping with KQs, but when people are playing this aggressive I get a little worried. I think you're often up against AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ, any of which really hurt you. I'm not saying folding is the correct play, but when I think about it, it doesn't seem *that* bad. We're getting very good odds though, I guess the flush potential alone could make up for being dominated.

when i raised this hand preflop i didnt expect to have it get capped 5 ways but there was no way i could lay the hand down under those circumstances. I will say that raising kqs is +ev in the long run shorthanded and full ring. It hold high card, flush, and straight value which makes it a good hand to have.