9 replies to this topic

[rustynail43]

Has anyone else noticed that when you’re playing very aggressive players they provide clear tells if they are not mixing up their game.So you have bet out every hand post flop regardless if you have made a pair, and now you check. Am I really supposed to bet into you? Or, you pepper me with 3BB or 4BB bets but now you bet 1BB. Does that show strength?I played a game last night where a very aggressive player only raises the pot to 2BB from late position. I called from the BB with Q8. The two of us see the flop of TTQ rainbow, he bets 1BB. I raise to 3BB and he goes all in. A big bet after the flop or a check would make me think, but 1BB? I called and he had 78s a total bluff. If he had just mixed up his game a little, I don’t think I could have called, however, at the time it just seemed so obvious. Was this a stupid call?No thin skin here, tell me what you think.

[Naismith]

I think it's a great call due to your read in the situation.My experience is that the weak lead after the flop can mean only two things:1) The player, like in your situation, feels obligated to bet after the flop even though it missed him but doesn't want to commit any real money to the pot.2) The player hit big and wants you to think that #1 is the case.With the level of players I play, I've discovered that it's almost always #1. In a lot of the tournaments I've played lately, I've built up my stack early with players who make a reasonable raise before the flop and then lower their bet after. A check-raise bluff here works well.Of course, you have to be wary about #2, but my general rule of thumb is if I've pegged a player as being a good player, I'll avoid his weak leads. If it's a weak player, I'll grab the pot.If in anyone else's experience, I'm wrong about the above, please let me know. I've been playing for a long time but only in the last year or so have I started playing in tournaments and outside of my home game.In any case, good read, good instincts, good call.Peace,Jay

[JimmyWellington]

If you're playing aggressive, it's very important to make similar plays when you have a hand or when you're bluffing. It's also very important to remember what hands got shown down. Say you're raising often, but you're getting strong hands. The one hand that gets shown down is weak. Now it looks like you're just playing really loose aggressive. You can use that to your advantage.I know your question was playing against an aggressive player. An aggressive player that is not very good is easy to play against. The earlier poster nailed it about the "weak lead" play. Another thing is the minimum raise. Unless I know the player to be tricky, if they minimum raise, I'll come right over the top and they'll almost always fold. Sometimes you have to fold a couple times to let them think that it's working.

[rustynail43]

Thanks for the comments. I think you helped to clarify what I was thinking and point out that I had another option, which was to win pre flop. Winning pre flop with a Q8 would have been best. I also agree that you must play differently against better players who could have done the same thing as a trap. If I had been unsure in any way, its an easy hand to muck.The lesson I want to learn is how this applies to my game. If I can pick this up with others, what are they picking up from me. I always think it’s a bit funny when someone wants us to evaluate a single hand of poker although I ask for this type of help myself. Its how we/they have played all the prior hands that should direct us on how to play this hand. Shortly after I made this call and busted out the player, I got a big hand and busted out another. I then became much more aggressive with no one wanting to challenge me. It was a pretty easy win from there.I also wanted to say a quick thank you for everyone who has responded to the different post I have made on this site. Although I have read many poker books, I have learned more about poker from this website than any other source. Thanks to Daniel for making the site available, and thanks to everyone else taking their time to make post.

[Snydz9]

rustynail43 said:

Has anyone else noticed that when you’re playing very aggressive players they provide clear tells if they are not mixing up their game.So you have bet out every hand post flop regardless if you have made a pair, and now you check.  Am I really supposed to bet into you? Or, you pepper me with 3BB or 4BB bets but now you bet 1BB. Does that show strength?I played a game last night where a very aggressive player only raises the pot to 2BB from late position.  I called from the BB with Q8.  The two of us see the flop of TTQ rainbow, he bets 1BB.  I raise to 3BB and he goes all in.  A big bet after the flop or a check would make me think, but 1BB?  I called and he had 78s a total bluff.  If he had just mixed up his game a little, I don’t think I could have called, however, at the time it just seemed so obvious.  Was this a stupid call?No thin skin here, tell me what you think.

I wouldn't consider that 'aggressive' I would consider it stupid playing. A true aggressive player is one that bets when when they have a hand, and bets when they don't have a hand, but are able to capitalize on other people not having a hand. You made a great play, but hte other play was just playing stupid. Aggressive by nature is impossible to read, unless they, like you said, don't mix up their play at all.

[JaysonWeber]

I completely agree with you I have 2 players at my table that are "stupid aggresive" By that I Mean, they are aggresive but they don't know enough to change it. I will provide a hand history of a game I was involved in last night with a good friend of mine who drove me there, he is very aggresive and it works for him but I've got a read on the boy ;)This was just a little $20 dollar buy max buy-in gameJayson Dealt: :clubsa: :clubsk:Luke Dealt: (Not Gonna Share yet)7 Handed UTG: Fold Luke: Call BlindsSeat 3: CallSeat 4:FoldButton: FoldSB: CallJayson: Bets $1.50Luke: CallSeat 3: FoldFlop: :spades10: :diamonds8: :clubs10: Jayson: Bet $1.50 DollarsLuke: Raise to $3.00Jayson: Raise to $4.50Luke: CallAt this point, Knowing he's aggresive he could have called me with any hand, I put him on the 8, knowing he would have re-raised again holding the 10.4th Street: :spadesk: Jayson: Bet $3.00Luke: CallAt this point i KNOW he doesn't have the 10, holding just the 8 So I am praying no 8 pops on the river...River: :diamonds3: Jayson: $3.00Luke: "I'm gonna put you all-in, here's your $3.00 and... The rest that you have."Well that was $14.00 evenWell, I was going to quick quick call this but decided I'd try to find out how he acted, being confident I had the best I still second guessed myself as it was for all of my money... Not a big deal, I wanted to sweat him.. see if he would give me tells I could use in the future..The reason I knew he had the 8 and not the 10 is that he was cold calling my raises and not re-raising, he will always re-raise when he has literally trips or better. Its amazing that many aggresive players wont change it up like this..I pushed in my money "I'll pay to the see the 8"Luke: :clubs5: :clubs8: Luke: "You called all that with just an Ace! I played that perfectly, I represented that 10 so hard I can't believe you called that! I dont know how I could have done that better"Jayson: "Well I think I played it pretty well, I got as much out of it as possible..."Ussually I won't prod people like this, but knowing I could probobly put him on tilt (He has a steam rating of I'd say 4 out of 10) I decided it was worth saying.I was so happy with my play here, a year ago, I would have folded thinking well I can come back from this loss and take him later... I just had to listen to my Gut which is the Hardest thing to do in poker in my opinion, so I brought down the $49.50 Pot and carried on with the night, he was out about an hour after this, deciding not to re-buy.

[Snydz9]

Jayson, I love that post.Poker comes down to the ability to read your opponent, and when it counts for all your money, thorw everything out the window and recall everything against him. Previous betting patterns, style of play, etc... And it really shows the meaning of stupid aggressive.

[Naismith]

"I just had to listen to my Gut which is the Hardest thing to do in poker in my opinion, so I brought down the $49.50 Pot and carried on with the night, he was out about an hour after this, deciding not to re-buy."That's my favorite part of your story. I had been playing what I call circus poker for about a decade before I started playing real poker games and my buddies and I developed from playing those crazy wild card games "poker instincts". One of the things I never trusted was my gut feeling while playing. Over time, I learned how to search for clues that confirmed my initial gut reaction. As an example, the other day I was in a tournament and limped in with J-9 suited from the button. The big blind went for his chips after calling "raise" and after a few seconds of thought, made it only 30 from 15. That raise stunk to me and my first instinct was "big pocket pair". The flop came down J-6-7. He bet 50. I asked if he had a big pair as I mucked my cards, jack up. He showed me kings. It wasn't so much a read...I mean, that's an awful raise with kings and I think four other people in the pot, one of which folded of course to just 15 more chips...but just a feeling that I was beat. Back in the past, I would've felt it but ignored it with top pair and not been able to go back and pinpoint an action to confirm it. In all of the poker books they tell you, they tell you to trust your first instinct and I think it's one of the most profitable things you can learn. Peace,Jay

[JimmyWellington]

Snydz9 said:

A true aggressive player is one that bets when when they have a hand, and bets when they don't have a hand, but are able to capitalize on other people not having a hand.

True dat! :clap: Online you see very few "good aggressive" players (well, I see very few anyway), and a lot of "bad aggressive" players. A stupid aggressive will bluff after the flop into a cooridinated high card flop where 2 players have called a preflop raise.Aggressive players need to show down several good hands to be able to get away with bullying the table. You'll pick up enough uncontested pots that you'll be able to throw your hand away when your opponent wakes up with a hand. I'm starting to figure out a style that really works for me at SnGs.Yesterday, before I got a HORRIBLE beat (see "you gotta be kidding me" in the bad beat forum for more info), I was chip leader with 6 players left. At that point, I had won 24 pots uncontested and won 3 out of 3 showdowns. The times that people had the balls to come over the top I had them crushed. A stupid aggressive player will just raise no matter what the situation. Once you know how to play aggressive, you can tell if the other person is a smart aggressive or stupid aggressive. If it's the latter, happy days are here again!! :dance:

[rustynail43]

I play mostly on-line, so I love keeping notes on my opponents. You will see the same people over and over and the notes really help early. I have a new note label, “Stupid Aggressive”. We all know if we get a big chip lead early in any tournament or sit n go, it’s a big advantage. Any pot with Mr. Weak or Mr. Stupid Aggressive, I’m in there baby….