Jump to content


omaha hi/lo beginner's guide, part 2


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 akishore

akishore

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 6,228 posts
  • Location:Cambridge (Boston), MA
  • Interests:Poker, jazz, programming, taekwondo, rock climbing, movies, etc.

Posted 03 February 2005 - 11:06 AM

omaha hi/lo beginner's guidepart 2: the subtletiesthis is a continuation of part 1. if you are unfamiliar with the game, you should read that first.as i said in part 1, this game can be played both fixed limit as well as pot limit (you might find a no limit home game, but it's not very practical). just as there are differences between fixed limit hold 'em and no limit hold 'em, there are differences between the playing styles of these two.fixed limit omaha hi/lo is about making the correct move in the long term, always, while pot limit omaha hi/lo is more about waiting for the really big edges and capitalizing on them big time. in fixed limit, you should usually never fold the nuts, but in pot limit, you might consider folding the nut straight if you have no better draw, and the board is suited in a multiway pot, etc. (you don't want to be drawing to blanks--someone could have the nut straight as well and be drawing to a better hand at the same time, called freerolling, but we'll get to that later).there are key characteristics that seperate the good pot limit omaha hi/lo players from the real sharks. the sharks have the discipline to lay down good hands because they know those hands aren't good enough, and they have the skill to recognize the situations which will earn them the most money. wihle all of the advice in this part is applicable to both styles, certain aspects like pot manipulation and the importance of freerolling are much more important in pot limit omaha hi/lo.pre-flop betting:betting pre-flop should either be to thin the field, or for value. if you have a high premium hand, you want to thin the field as much as possible, so be aggressive with hands like AAKQ, or AKKT, etc. do this to give your hand the best chance of holding up, as well as to reduce the likelihood of someone drawing to a low. in a similar way, if you have a low-only hand, you don't want to pay too much pre-flop, because if three high cards land, your calls have become dead money in the pot and you're forced to fold.when you have hands that aim to scoop the whole pot, you no longer want to thin the field because you want as much money in the pot as possible, because in the best case you might take the whole pot or three-quarters. hands like AA23 or AK23 double suited are monsters pre-flop and you want to get your money in with the best of it. you also want all the lows to stay in the pot because if three high cards land, you still have a chance at being the best high hand, and if three low cards land, you have a chance at having the nut hand and scooping.one thing you want to be very careful with when it comes to low hands is counterfeit protection. specifically, a big downfall of many players is that when they see A2xx, they get excited and raise the pot. this is a terrible move because if an A or a 2 lands, your hand is done--you have no low anymore unless three other low cards also come. if you're in late position, you can raise the pot for value to give you better odds of drawing to a low if you have a powerful low drawing hand like A234--it doesn't matter if you miss the flop, because in the long term, that's the correct move. don't overdo it with weaker draws, though, because unlike hold'em, the board is a necessary part of your hand so if you miss more than your fair share, you're throwing money away.the critical flop:everyone knows that the flop is important in hold'em. after all, you're seeing 5/7 of your hand after just the first betting round. in omaha hi/lo, the flop is exponentially more important. not only are you seeing a bigger part of your hand (7/9), your hand is DEFINED by the board (since you need three board cards). in hold'em, you don't always need the board, e.g. if you have an overpair. this is not the case here.in low-limit multiway pots, you either want to have a very strong hand or a very strong draw. if you don't have one of these, get out of the pot, because all it cost you was one betting round pre-flop, and your hand is only going to improve by two more cards if you stay in. overpairs don't do the trick in omaha hi/lo. instead, the game is all about straights, flushes, and full houses. it's rare for even a set to hold up.if you have a set, however, you have a decent draw at a boat (the board needs to pair, for a total of 7 outs, or 10 outs after the turn), but if you have trips (e.g. you hold Kxxx and the board is KKx), you have a better draw at filling up on the turn (which has to be one of your other three hole cards for a total of 10 outs).if you have a good draw, though, chances are you're a favorite! many hold'em players don't understand this concept, but in omaha hi/lo, you want to bet when you have a strong draw (e.g. nut flush draw with gutshot nut straight draw), because the pot is usually offering you more than the frequency that you'll win the hand. in these situations, it's correct to bet at your draws because in the long run you show a bigger profit.the exception to this is with a low draw that's uninsured, e.g. A2xx on a board of 56x. here, you want to see the turn and river cheaply, because if an A or a 2 lands, you're done! the same goes for a nut straight draw without a flush draw on a suited board. you want to make sure that if you hit, the card that makes you a straight doesn't also make the flush.this is not the case when you have a made hand! if you have a nut flush, you DON'T want to see if the board will pair on the turn or river before you get aggressive. if you have a made hand, you MUST bet it for value and be aggressive, because with a nut hand (especially a flush, which can never be quartered), you are by far the favorite to hold up. the same applies for a made low, but that's more obvious.hi/lo pot odds:pot odds for high hands are very simple; they work just like in texas hold'em. the only difference is that on the flop, you can see 8 out of 52 cards, and on the turn, you see 9. so you divide by 45 on the flop and 44 on the river. again, a quick multiplication of 2 and adding of 2 will give you a close estimate of the odds of hitting your draw on the next card.some good high draws to memorize:open-ended straight draw - 8 outs (make sure all 8 outs are clean to the nuts! e.g. KQxx on a flop of JTx)wrap-around straight draw- 13 outs if five-straight combination (e.g. AKQx on flop of JTx), 16 outs if six-straight combination (e.g. AKQ9 on flop of JTx)freerolling straight draw - 6 outs (e.g. AKQx on a flop of JT9, a K or Q will give you the nut straight)flush draw - 9 outsboat/quad draw with a set - 7 outs on the flop, 10 outs on the turn (e.g. AAxx on a flop of Axx)boat/quad draw with trips - 10 outs (e.g. Axxx on flop of AAx)low draws are a little more complicated. one general rule to always remember is that you want to have counterfeit protection so that you can draw to more cards. another thing to remember is that A2 is really much more valuable preflop than A3 or 23, because you can draw to any three low cards between 3 and 8, but with A3, you need to draw to a duece and two other low cards, and similarly with 23, you need to draw to an ace with two other low cards.here is a nice chart from poker for dummies:2 low cards dealt to you - 24% chance preflop of making a low hand, 59% chance of making a low hand if two new low cards flop, and 16% chance of making a low hand if one new low card flops.3 low cards dealt to you - 40% chance preflop of making a low hand, 72% chance of making a low hand if two new low cards flop, and 26% chance of making a low hand if one new low card flops.4 low cards dealt to you - 49% chance preflop of making a low hand, 70% chance of making a low hand if two new low cards flop, and 24% chance of making a low hand if one new low card flops.from this, you can see how vital it is to have counterfeit protection, not just for the sake of protecting your hand, but of dramatically increasing your odds of making a low hand (there is a big difference between the chances with 2 low cards dealt and 3, but not such a difference between 3 and 4).you can also see that if you have 3 or 4 low cards in the hole, you will often have the correct odds to chase a runner-runner low draw (about 25% chance, in loose limit games that is a good draw). the more important lesson is that if you have four to a nut low on the flop, bet and bet (make sure you have counterfeit protection and that your draw is "insured"--see below), because you are a heavy favorite to win the low (about 2-1 favored)!here are the odds of hitting a low with one card to come (on the turn specifically after the flop, or on the river after the turn) when there are two low cards on the board that are not the same as any of your hole cards (if one card is counterfeited, it is basically as if you had one less low card dealt to you, e.g. A23x and the board is 34xx):2 low cards dealt to you - 36% chance of getting a new low card3 low cards dealt to you - 47% chance of getting a new low card4 low cards dealt to you - 45% chance of getting a new low cardthe reason i did the high odds in terms of outs and the low odds in percentages is because outs are more applicable to straight/flush/boat draws, but with low draws, you draw to so many cards (as high as 21) that's the quick rules of multiplication don't work--know the percentages instead. or better yet, forget the percentages and just realize that if you have four to a low with nut low insurance, bet, raise, and re-raise, because you are a favorite to win the low (occasionally you'll get quartered, but you'll learn to recognize these situations, especially when the low draw hits).pot manipulation:this is a topic that applies more to pot limit omaha hi/lo, but of course, it is an issue that you deal with in fixed limit as well. basically, what pot manipulation means is that through aggression, you control the hand, i.e. how many people stay in the hand, how big the pot is, how much you have to pay to draw, etc.what it relates to is starting hands, as well as the board and how your hand connects with it. this example is not mine, but it's a great example of how pot manipulation is essential: suppose you hold KK98 and the board is KQQ. here, you can be very aggressive and can drive the pot and drive the betting because most likely, you have the best hand and it will hold up. however, suppose you have JJ98 and the board is JQQ. here, you cannot be so aggressive because it's unlikely that you will have the best hand at showdown.the same applies to draws. suppose you have JT98 and the flop comes JQx. you have a weak draw here, because only an 8 will give you the nut straight. anything else gives you a weak straight, so you cannot be aggressive and bet for value because you do not have a great shot at being the best hand by the end.this idea dictates that strong starting hands are key in omaha hi/lo, because when you hit, you can really fill up the pot and get aggressive. if you see a flop and you don't have a strong hand or a strong draw, lay it down right away because you have lost your power to manipulate the pot and control the hand. more so at low limits, profits are earned by keeping the pot small when you have an uninsured draw (i'll explain insurance below) and bloating the pot as much as you can when you have a made hand with a good draw.the reason this applies more to pot limit omaha hi/lo is obvious. just as aggression is key in hold'em, pot manipulation is key in omaha hi/lo. at low limits, everyone will chase with a decent draw or a decent hand, so you can really make them pay for it and really reap the rewards through good betting.insurance:this relates to counterfeit protection for low hands, but it also applies to high hands. to use a low hand example, say you hold A23x, and the flop came 57J. you have what we call an insured nut low draw, because no matter what low card falls, you will have nut low--your hand can't get counterfeited. it is in these situations with these types of draws that you want to be aggressive because you are a favorite to win the low hand.insured draws also happen when you have a wraparound straight with broadway cards. suppose you hold AKQ9 and the flop is JT2. no matter what card falls between 8 and A, you will have the nut straight. again, be aggressive with a monster draw like this because you are a favorite to win the high hand (assuming there is no flush or paired board).what's key about insurance is that it relates strongly to pot manipulation. when you have an uninsured draw or any kind of weak hand, you can't be aggressive and can't control the hand, so you get out of it. anytime you have an insured draw, however, you control the hand because in the long run, you will win, so you should be appropriately aggressive.freerolling:this is a characteristic that also occurs in texas hold'em, but to a much smaller degree. while this is just another form of a powerful draw in fixed limit, it's real power is in pot limit omaha hi/lo. why? because pot limit omaha hi/lo is all about waiting for the opportune moment when you have the best hand without a doubt, and freerolling is a huge way to make this happen.suppose you have AKQJ and the board is T98. suppose now that your opponent has QJ32. you both have the nut straight, but he is absolutely drawing dead against you, and you have a very high chance of winning the hand. if a J or Q lands, you will have the better hand. the same applies to a situation such as you having the nut straight with the nut flush draw while your opponent only has a nut straight with no draw. he is drawing dead to you, but you have a chance of winning.other situations would be both of you having the nut low with you having a nut high draw, or vice versa. of course, you never know your opponent's cards, but if you have a nut hand with a better draw, you must recognize that you are probably freerolling someone, and you MUST get as many chips in as you can. if you can get all-in at some time, you MUST, because nobody at the low limits will ever lay down the nuts recognizing that they are probably getting freerolled, and even if you split the pot most of the time, the few times that you hit your draw and win the whole pot, you will earn a massive profit.of course, if you are on the other end of the stick, it is very difficult to lay down the best hand when facing aggressive betting. with experience, though, you start to recognize these situations and you can hopefully see a cheap turn and river and make sure no scare cards fall, or you can lay down your hand knowing that you are getting freerolled. while this is not such a big danger in fixed limit, it is a vital skill in pot limit if you're a shark. it is NEVER a bad move to lay down the nut hand in pot limit when you have no draw to improve, because it is not improbable that someone is freerolling you.the one exception to this is with flushes... you either have the nuts or you don't. nobody can freeroll you on a flush draw, and that's why flushes are such a good made hand in omaha hi/lo. not only will you never get quartered, you actually have a strong chance of three-quartering if you have a decent low. this goes to emphasize the importance of your starting cards being suited or double-suited--it gives you a big edge!starting hand advice:just some miscellaneous information here that is very useful but more subtle. fixed limit omaha hi/lo is all about maximizing those little edges, while pot limit omaha hi/lo is all about finding the huge edges, and through some of these tips, you can do both.for low hands, having a 6 in your hand greatly improves your chance at three-quartering on a low flop. example: you have A236, and the board comes 45x. you have the insured nut low draw, but what's better is that if an A, 2, or 3 lands, you have a 6-high straight as opposed to a 5-high straight other nut lows will have! so if there aren't too many people in the pot, you can often scoop the pot or three-quarter it with your 6-high straight that beats the wheel!one trap in starting hands is playing middle connectors like 789T. although this hand is very coordinated and works together nicely, it will often leave you as the second best hand or give you only half the pot. why? because if you get the nut straight, there are at least two low cards on the board, probably three, so someone will have made a low. if not, then there are high cards like 89T or 9TJ, you hold a very weak baby straight. so try to stay away from middle cards, especially in pot limit omaha hi/lo.finally, there are systems for counting points pre-flop, and deciding whether to fold, call or raise depending on these points. for example, a pair of aces is 20 points, A2 is 10 points, a pair of kings are 15 points, 5 points for being suited, 15 points for being double-suited, etc. add up all your points and if you have 30 or more, call. if you have 40 or more, raise, and if you have 50 or more, reraise, etc. i personally strongly disagree with this system, because it encourages thinking of your hand in two-card units. this is wrong!always remember that your hand is a four-card unit! all four cards should work together in some way, so if you have AA48 unsuited, lay it down! you have a very slim chance of having the best hand because you only really have two good cards (and are basically drawing to only two outs), not four. a hand like KQJT is MUCH better than AKQ5, because even though the value might be lower because of no ace, you have four cards that work together, not three with a dangler.conclusion:well, that's all. there will be no part 3, as this is just about all the information i can come up with. i hope this guide helps. again, feel free to criticize, praise, etc.i'll see you at the tables. enjoy!aseem

#2 jayistheman

jayistheman

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 2,815 posts
  • Location:philly
  • Interests:billiards, poker, sleep, software development, videogames, fly fishing, hiking, camping

Posted 03 February 2005 - 11:50 AM

good work mango bake yourself a cake.....you deserve itthanks alot... ive been waiting for a good o/8 strategy guide for a while, cuz ive been too lazy to figure it out for myself! :-) thanks again,-Jay

#3 akishore

akishore

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 6,228 posts
  • Location:Cambridge (Boston), MA
  • Interests:Poker, jazz, programming, taekwondo, rock climbing, movies, etc.

Posted 03 February 2005 - 12:42 PM

no problem, i'm glad you like it. i enjoyed writing it... teaching helps you learn the game better yourself.aseem

#4 Don Giovanni

Don Giovanni

    Custom member title

  • Members
  • 3,855 posts

Posted 03 February 2005 - 01:18 PM

thanks man, im no expert but everything you said sounds like good stratagy to me. keep it up.

#5

  • Guests

Posted 04 February 2005 - 12:23 AM

Hell of a job man. About two weeks ago I decided to see what Omaha Hi/Lo was about. I fooled around on a play money table to get the hang of it and was hooked. I had a lot more fun playing this game on a play money table than I have had in months of much higher limit hold em. I've started playing this on the lower limits now and have won a few times and lost a few. I've been reading a lot up on the game but never a full guide that covers everything like this. Thanks a lot dude, I definitely understand the concepts behind this game a lot more now. If my plan all works out, I'll be making most of my money off of this more enjoyable game than hold em in the future. See you around.

#6 akishore

akishore

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 6,228 posts
  • Location:Cambridge (Boston), MA
  • Interests:Poker, jazz, programming, taekwondo, rock climbing, movies, etc.

Posted 04 February 2005 - 12:39 AM

thanks for the praise, and i'm glad it's helpful. i just hope too many omaha hi/lo games don't go broke as people get more interested in it and the fish bust big time. :-) i definitely agree with you, i have such a more fun time playing omaha hi/lo than limit hold'em (not always the case, but for the most part). with hold'em, i feel like i'm grinding it out, waiting for the top 30 hands, etc. with omaha, i love the action and the huge pots and really getting rewarded when you play a hand well.aseem

#7 gobears

gobears

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 6,096 posts
  • Location:Los Gatos, CA

Posted 04 February 2005 - 01:38 PM

Great guide; I found it very useful. Played some .25/.50 Omaha Hi/Lo last night on pokerstars and it was fun and profitable.It's a nice break from hold-em as there is quite a bit more action and it seems that there are always callers when you end up with the nuts.
Work to live, don't live to work - Todd Harrison

#8 Shaffer

Shaffer

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 115 posts

Posted 05 February 2005 - 10:57 AM

Thanks for the great guide, man. I've been getting into Omaha Hi/Lo online once I've started to see how bloody terrible most of the players are at the $0.50-$1 tables can be. Those are the limits where I'm comfortable at online, and I despise playing limit hold 'em that low since it's all about waiting for the hands where you feel comfortable going up against 8 opponents in a capped pre-flop pot. I'd heard that Omaha Hi/Lo was much better for those sorts of situations and while I've been profitable at it so far, I've known that I'm still a novice - having a guide like this helps me in particular to evaluate starting hands and how to play them, particularly at low limits (I should probably be folding a lot more than I am - I've only been folding 60% of my hands pre-flop to this point, which seems low, but is far higher than most of the people at the table).It's fun getting AA in Hold 'em, but it's even more fun to get A234 in Omaha hi-lo, then to watch the flop come AA4, see a raise and re-raise in front of you and wind up with 5 people in a capped pot on the flop. Probably the only time I've ever paid for a tank of gas in a single hand of a $0.50-$1 limit game!

#9 custom36

custom36

    FCP Veteran, Politico

  • Members
  • 16,157 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Wisconsin
  • Favorite Poker Game:Limit Hold'em

Posted 04 July 2005 - 02:42 PM

shameless bump

#10 BETNFOOL

BETNFOOL

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 257 posts
  • Location:TEMPLE, TEXAS
  • Interests:GOLF N CARDS

Posted 22 July 2005 - 07:16 PM

akishore said:

omaha hi/lo beginner's guidepart 2: the subtletiesthis is a continuation of part 1. if you are unfamiliar with the game, you should read that first.as i said in part 1, this game can be played both fixed limit as well as pot limit (you might find a no limit home game, but it's not very practical). just as there are differences between fixed limit hold 'em and no limit hold 'em, there are differences between the playing styles of these two.fixed limit omaha hi/lo is about making the correct move in the long term, always, while pot limit omaha hi/lo is more about waiting for the really big edges and capitalizing on them big time. in fixed limit, you should usually never fold the nuts, but in pot limit, you might consider folding the nut straight if you have no better draw, and the board is suited in a multiway pot, etc. (you don't want to be drawing to blanks--someone could have the nut straight as well and be drawing to a better hand at the same time, called freerolling, but we'll get to that later).there are key characteristics that seperate the good pot limit omaha hi/lo players from the real sharks. the sharks have the discipline to lay down good hands because they know those hands aren't good enough, and they have the skill to recognize the situations which will earn them the most money. wihle all of the advice in this part is applicable to both styles, certain aspects like pot manipulation and the importance of freerolling are much more important in pot limit omaha hi/lo.pre-flop betting:betting pre-flop should either be to thin the field, or for value. if you have a high premium hand, you want to thin the field as much as possible, so be aggressive with hands like AAKQ, or AKKT, etc. do this to give your hand the best chance of holding up, as well as to reduce the likelihood of someone drawing to a low. in a similar way, if you have a low-only hand, you don't want to pay too much pre-flop, because if three high cards land, your calls have become dead money in the pot and you're forced to fold.when you have hands that aim to scoop the whole pot, you no longer want to thin the field because you want as much money in the pot as possible, because in the best case you might take the whole pot or three-quarters. hands like AA23 or AK23 double suited are monsters pre-flop and you want to get your money in with the best of it. you also want all the lows to stay in the pot because if three high cards land, you still have a chance at being the best high hand, and if three low cards land, you have a chance at having the nut hand and scooping.one thing you want to be very careful with when it comes to low hands is counterfeit protection. specifically, a big downfall of many players is that when they see A2xx, they get excited and raise the pot. this is a terrible move because if an A or a 2 lands, your hand is done--you have no low anymore unless three other low cards also come. if you're in late position, you can raise the pot for value to give you better odds of drawing to a low if you have a powerful low drawing hand like A234--it doesn't matter if you miss the flop, because in the long term, that's the correct move. don't overdo it with weaker draws, though, because unlike hold'em, the board is a necessary part of your hand so if you miss more than your fair share, you're throwing money away.the critical flop:everyone knows that the flop is important in hold'em. after all, you're seeing 5/7 of your hand after just the first betting round. in omaha hi/lo, the flop is exponentially more important. not only are you seeing a bigger part of your hand (7/9), your hand is DEFINED by the board (since you need three board cards). in hold'em, you don't always need the board, e.g. if you have an overpair. this is not the case here.in low-limit multiway pots, you either want to have a very strong hand or a very strong draw. if you don't have one of these, get out of the pot, because all it cost you was one betting round pre-flop, and your hand is only going to improve by two more cards if you stay in. overpairs don't do the trick in omaha hi/lo. instead, the game is all about straights, flushes, and full houses. it's rare for even a set to hold up.if you have a set, however, you have a decent draw at a boat (the board needs to pair, for a total of 7 outs, or 10 outs after the turn), but if you have trips (e.g. you hold Kxxx and the board is KKx), you have a better draw at filling up on the turn (which has to be one of your other three hole cards for a total of 10 outs).if you have a good draw, though, chances are you're a favorite! many hold'em players don't understand this concept, but in omaha hi/lo, you want to bet when you have a strong draw (e.g. nut flush draw with gutshot nut straight draw), because the pot is usually offering you more than the frequency that you'll win the hand. in these situations, it's correct to bet at your draws because in the long run you show a bigger profit.the exception to this is with a low draw that's uninsured, e.g. A2xx on a board of 56x. here, you want to see the turn and river cheaply, because if an A or a 2 lands, you're done! the same goes for a nut straight draw without a flush draw on a suited board. you want to make sure that if you hit, the card that makes you a straight doesn't also make the flush.this is not the case when you have a made hand! if you have a nut flush, you DON'T want to see if the board will pair on the turn or river before you get aggressive. if you have a made hand, you MUST bet it for value and be aggressive, because with a nut hand (especially a flush, which can never be quartered), you are by far the favorite to hold up. the same applies for a made low, but that's more obvious.hi/lo pot odds:pot odds for high hands are very simple; they work just like in texas hold'em. the only difference is that on the flop, you can see 8 out of 52 cards, and on the turn, you see 9. so you divide by 45 on the flop and 44 on the river. again, a quick multiplication of 2 and adding of 2 will give you a close estimate of the odds of hitting your draw on the next card.some good high draws to memorize:open-ended straight draw - 8 outs (make sure all 8 outs are clean to the nuts! e.g. KQxx on a flop of JTx)wrap-around straight draw- 13 outs if five-straight combination (e.g. AKQx on flop of JTx), 16 outs if six-straight combination (e.g. AKQ9 on flop of JTx)freerolling straight draw - 6 outs (e.g. AKQx on a flop of JT9, a K or Q will give you the nut straight)flush draw - 9 outsboat/quad draw with a set - 7 outs on the flop, 10 outs on the turn (e.g. AAxx on a flop of Axx)boat/quad draw with trips - 10 outs (e.g. Axxx on flop of AAx)low draws are a little more complicated. one general rule to always remember is that you want to have counterfeit protection so that you can draw to more cards. another thing to remember is that A2 is really much more valuable preflop than A3 or 23, because you can draw to any three low cards between 3 and 8, but with A3, you need to draw to a duece and two other low cards, and similarly with 23, you need to draw to an ace with two other low cards.here is a nice chart from poker for dummies:2 low cards dealt to you - 24% chance preflop of making a low hand, 59% chance of making a low hand if two new low cards flop, and 16% chance of making a low hand if one new low card flops.3 low cards dealt to you - 40% chance preflop of making a low hand, 72% chance of making a low hand if two new low cards flop, and 26% chance of making a low hand if one new low card flops.4 low cards dealt to you - 49% chance preflop of making a low hand, 70% chance of making a low hand if two new low cards flop, and 24% chance of making a low hand if one new low card flops.from this, you can see how vital it is to have counterfeit protection, not just for the sake of protecting your hand, but of dramatically increasing your odds of making a low hand (there is a big difference between the chances with 2 low cards dealt and 3, but not such a difference between 3 and 4).you can also see that if you have 3 or 4 low cards in the hole, you will often have the correct odds to chase a runner-runner low draw (about 25% chance, in loose limit games that is a good draw). the more important lesson is that if you have four to a nut low on the flop, bet and bet (make sure you have counterfeit protection and that your draw is "insured"--see below), because you are a heavy favorite to win the low (about 2-1 favored)!here are the odds of hitting a low with one card to come (on the turn specifically after the flop, or on the river after the turn) when there are two low cards on the board that are not the same as any of your hole cards (if one card is counterfeited, it is basically as if you had one less low card dealt to you, e.g. A23x and the board is 34xx):2 low cards dealt to you - 36% chance of getting a new low card3 low cards dealt to you - 47% chance of getting a new low card4 low cards dealt to you - 45% chance of getting a new low cardthe reason i did the high odds in terms of outs and the low odds in percentages is because outs are more applicable to straight/flush/boat draws, but with low draws, you draw to so many cards (as high as 21) that's the quick rules of multiplication don't work--know the percentages instead. or better yet, forget the percentages and just realize that if you have four to a low with nut low insurance, bet, raise, and re-raise, because you are a favorite to win the low (occasionally you'll get quartered, but you'll learn to recognize these situations, especially when the low draw hits).pot manipulation:this is a topic that applies more to pot limit omaha hi/lo, but of course, it is an issue that you deal with in fixed limit as well. basically, what pot manipulation means is that through aggression, you control the hand, i.e. how many people stay in the hand, how big the pot is, how much you have to pay to draw, etc.what it relates to is starting hands, as well as the board and how your hand connects with it. this example is not mine, but it's a great example of how pot manipulation is essential: suppose you hold KK98 and the board is KQQ. here, you can be very aggressive and can drive the pot and drive the betting because most likely, you have the best hand and it will hold up. however, suppose you have JJ98 and the board is JQQ. here, you cannot be so aggressive because it's unlikely that you will have the best hand at showdown.the same applies to draws. suppose you have JT98 and the flop comes JQx. you have a weak draw here, because only an 8 will give you the nut straight. anything else gives you a weak straight, so you cannot be aggressive and bet for value because you do not have a great shot at being the best hand by the end.this idea dictates that strong starting hands are key in omaha hi/lo, because when you hit, you can really fill up the pot and get aggressive. if you see a flop and you don't have a strong hand or a strong draw, lay it down right away because you have lost your power to manipulate the pot and control the hand. more so at low limits, profits are earned by keeping the pot small when you have an uninsured draw (i'll explain insurance below) and bloating the pot as much as you can when you have a made hand with a good draw.the reason this applies more to pot limit omaha hi/lo is obvious. just as aggression is key in hold'em, pot manipulation is key in omaha hi/lo. at low limits, everyone will chase with a decent draw or a decent hand, so you can really make them pay for it and really reap the rewards through good betting.insurance:this relates to counterfeit protection for low hands, but it also applies to high hands. to use a low hand example, say you hold A23x, and the flop came 57J. you have what we call an insured nut low draw, because no matter what low card falls, you will have nut low--your hand can't get counterfeited. it is in these situations with these types of draws that you want to be aggressive because you are a favorite to win the low hand.insured draws also happen when you have a wraparound straight with broadway cards. suppose you hold AKQ9 and the flop is JT2. no matter what card falls between 8 and A, you will have the nut straight. again, be aggressive with a monster draw like this because you are a favorite to win the high hand (assuming there is no flush or paired board).what's key about insurance is that it relates strongly to pot manipulation. when you have an uninsured draw or any kind of weak hand, you can't be aggressive and can't control the hand, so you get out of it. anytime you have an insured draw, however, you control the hand because in the long run, you will win, so you should be appropriately aggressive.freerolling:this is a characteristic that also occurs in texas hold'em, but to a much smaller degree. while this is just another form of a powerful draw in fixed limit, it's real power is in pot limit omaha hi/lo. why? because pot limit omaha hi/lo is all about waiting for the opportune moment when you have the best hand without a doubt, and freerolling is a huge way to make this happen.suppose you have AKQJ and the board is T98. suppose now that your opponent has QJ32. you both have the nut straight, but he is absolutely drawing dead against you, and you have a very high chance of winning the hand. if a J or Q lands, you will have the better hand. the same applies to a situation such as you having the nut straight with the nut flush draw while your opponent only has a nut straight with no draw. he is drawing dead to you, but you have a chance of winning.other situations would be both of you having the nut low with you having a nut high draw, or vice versa. of course, you never know your opponent's cards, but if you have a nut hand with a better draw, you must recognize that you are probably freerolling someone, and you MUST get as many chips in as you can. if you can get all-in at some time, you MUST, because nobody at the low limits will ever lay down the nuts recognizing that they are probably getting freerolled, and even if you split the pot most of the time, the few times that you hit your draw and win the whole pot, you will earn a massive profit.of course, if you are on the other end of the stick, it is very difficult to lay down the best hand when facing aggressive betting. with experience, though, you start to recognize these situations and you can hopefully see a cheap turn and river and make sure no scare cards fall, or you can lay down your hand knowing that you are getting freerolled. while this is not such a big danger in fixed limit, it is a vital skill in pot limit if you're a shark. it is NEVER a bad move to lay down the nut hand in pot limit when you have no draw to improve, because it is not improbable that someone is freerolling you.the one exception to this is with flushes... you either have the nuts or you don't. nobody can freeroll you on a flush draw, and that's why flushes are such a good made hand in omaha hi/lo. not only will you never get quartered, you actually have a strong chance of three-quartering if you have a decent low. this goes to emphasize the importance of your starting cards being suited or double-suited--it gives you a big edge!starting hand advice:just some miscellaneous information here that is very useful but more subtle. fixed limit omaha hi/lo is all about maximizing those little edges, while pot limit omaha hi/lo is all about finding the huge edges, and through some of these tips, you can do both.for low hands, having a 6 in your hand greatly improves your chance at three-quartering on a low flop. example: you have A236, and the board comes 45x. you have the insured nut low draw, but what's better is that if an A, 2, or 3 lands, you have a 6-high straight as opposed to a 5-high straight other nut lows will have! so if there aren't too many people in the pot, you can often scoop the pot or three-quarter it with your 6-high straight that beats the wheel!one trap in starting hands is playing middle connectors like 789T. although this hand is very coordinated and works together nicely, it will often leave you as the second best hand or give you only half the pot. why? because if you get the nut straight, there are at least two low cards on the board, probably three, so someone will have made a low. if not, then there are high cards like 89T or 9TJ, you hold a very weak baby straight. so try to stay away from middle cards, especially in pot limit omaha hi/lo.finally, there are systems for counting points pre-flop, and deciding whether to fold, call or raise depending on these points. for example, a pair of aces is 20 points, A2 is 10 points, a pair of kings are 15 points, 5 points for being suited, 15 points for being double-suited, etc. add up all your points and if you have 30 or more, call. if you have 40 or more, raise, and if you have 50 or more, reraise, etc. i personally strongly disagree with this system, because it encourages thinking of your hand in two-card units. this is wrong!always remember that your hand is a four-card unit! all four cards should work together in some way, so if you have AA48 unsuited, lay it down! you have a very slim chance of having the best hand because you only really have two good cards (and are basically drawing to only two outs), not four. a hand like KQJT is MUCH better than AKQ5, because even though the value might be lower because of no ace, you have four cards that work together, not three with a dangler.conclusion:well, that's all. there will be no part 3, as this is just about all the information i can come up with. i hope this guide helps. again, feel free to criticize, praise, etc.i'll see you at the tables. enjoy!aseem
ty
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia"
c.s.

friends let friends play poker drunk

#11 lboarts

lboarts

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 941 posts

Posted 25 July 2005 - 01:10 PM

Write a book, OP. I think you covered the game perfectly. If everyone who reads this follows your advice, I hope they stay out of my games. On second thought, forget the book and delete this post.
Scared money never wins.

#12 Swift_Psycho

Swift_Psycho

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 4,899 posts

Posted 24 August 2005 - 10:45 AM

if you have a high premium hand, you want to thin the field as much as possible, so be aggressive with hands like AAKQ, or AKKT, etc. do this to give your hand the best chance of holding up, as well as to reduce the likelihood of someone drawing to a low.Hey aki, I have a question about the above. First let me say that I'm not really arguing you here because I am quite aware that I'm really not a very good limit omaha 8/b player. I'm just wondering what the logic behind the quote is. Wouldn't you want more players in when you have a strong high only hand so that there would be more dead money in the pot (from the low hands) when you flopped a good high flop (one or no low cards, 25% of the time)? Thinning the field might put yourself up against a couple other players who have both high and low potential, making it unprofitable for you to play against them because you can only win half the pot at best (because about 75% of flops have two or three low cards).Thanks in advance for the answer, as I feel this might be one of the biggest holes in my game because I can't understand why you would want to thin the field with AAKQ double-suited.

#13 yeffy

yeffy

    Butt Head

  • Members
  • 1,433 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brooklyn
  • Favorite Poker Game:OE or any mixed game

Posted 24 August 2005 - 12:26 PM

Swift_Psycho said:

if you have a high premium hand, you want to thin the field as much as possible, so be aggressive with hands like AAKQ, or AKKT, etc. do this to give your hand the best chance of holding up, as well as to reduce the likelihood of someone drawing to a low.Hey aki, I have a question about the above.  First let me say that I'm not really arguing you here because I am quite aware that I'm really not a very good limit omaha 8/b player.  I'm just wondering what the logic behind the quote is.  Wouldn't you want more players in when you have a strong high only hand so that there would be more dead money in the pot (from the low hands) when you flopped a good high flop (one or no low cards, 25% of the time)? Thinning the field might put yourself up against a couple other players who have both high and low potential, making it unprofitable for you to play against them because you can only win half the pot at best (because about 75% of flops have two or three low cards).Thanks in advance for the answer, as I feel this might be one of the biggest holes in my game because I can't understand why you would want to thin the field with AAKQ double-suited.
I was surprised by this as well. I find high only hands end up in the muck on the flop frequently. Whenever there is a low flop and significant action they become worthless. For that reason I prefer high volume low cost pots. Good high only hands tend to make the nuts so having hangers on is not a problem. Conversely I don't want to isolate a premium hand that is going to end up freerolling on me if I do make a solid high and there is a low present. Bobby Baldwin says the same thing in SS/2, he feels high only hands perform best in unraised multi-way pots, and that you never want to commit a lot of chips preflop with these holdings as you will frequently need to shut down if you miss the flop or the board comes low.Short handed is a different story as a premium pair can often win unimproved in a 2 or 3 handed situation. But caution is still necessary as the freerolling situation can still occur.

#14 akishore

akishore

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 6,228 posts
  • Location:Cambridge (Boston), MA
  • Interests:Poker, jazz, programming, taekwondo, rock climbing, movies, etc.

Posted 24 August 2005 - 08:10 PM

swift, i agree. you want to see a flop with high only hands cheaply and multiway in general. my guide has some errors like this, and one day when i'm not too lazy, i'll get around to correcting all of them. :-) aseem
After a long hiatus, my poker blog is back!

#15 mrdannyg

mrdannyg

    Cheese Salesman

  • Members
  • 20,266 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 December 2005 - 11:43 AM

custom36 said:

shameless bump

Long signatures are really annoying.

#16 ddudley

ddudley

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 806 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Jose, CA
  • Interests:Poker, Rock Climbing, Kickboxing, Golf, Investing
  • Favorite Poker Game:Limit Hold 'em

Posted 25 December 2005 - 07:23 PM

I was looking all over the place and couldn't find this post. It should be moved to the Omaha Hi-Lo Forum and probably stickied.Hello?... Are there any mods in here?
-Dud

"Look, if you had one shot, one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted-In One moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?"

#17 Deepkoncntrtion

Deepkoncntrtion

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 183 posts
  • Location:dwn unda

Posted 26 December 2005 - 11:57 PM

Quote

It should be moved to the Omaha Hi-Lo Forum and stickied.

the lottery is a tax 4 ppl bad @ math

#18 lew189

lew189

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 216 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Switch

Posted 28 December 2005 - 06:07 AM

Deepkoncntrtion said:

Quote

It should be moved to the Omaha Hi-Lo Forum and stickied.


#19 HoosierAlum

HoosierAlum

    Grindmode

  • Members
  • 8,169 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago
  • Interests:Golf, Traveling, Baseball, Basketball

Posted 16 January 2006 - 05:30 AM

Every beginning player should read these guides and then pick up SS2 and read Mark Gregorich's section. With these two tools you can beat most low-limit O8 games.




I might start updating this again.
http://jonathandepa.blogspot.com/

#20 Swift_Psycho

Swift_Psycho

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 4,899 posts

Posted 23 February 2006 - 04:54 PM

View Postddudley, on Sunday, December 25th, 2005, 10:23 PM, said:

I was looking all over the place and couldn't find this post. It should be moved to the Omaha Hi-Lo Forum and probably stickied.
Good point. I have no idea what this is doing in the Omaha Hi forum.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users