i got berated after this one

[hanski 0]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is CO with [Td], [Kd]. UTG calls, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: (5 SB) [5d], [8d], [4h] (5 players)SB bets, UTG folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls.Ok to call with FD+overs, no one caps this right?Turn: (7.50 BB) [4s] (3 players)SB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, SB calls.River: (10.50 BB) [Tc] (3 players)SB checks, MP3 bets, SB folds, MP3 calls.Final Pot: 14.50 BBI hit a ten and bells go off in my head about a section in SSHE on the river with a marginal hand with someone to act behind you. So I raise. Standard?Final Pot: 14.50 BB

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I think the problem is preflop play.Whenever I'm reading a hand history over and over again and the decisions and board get more and more marginal, it usually means I need to back up and see if I can find a better way to change the way it ended up.I think KdTd in the CO is raise or fold. That makes your flop raise a lot more powerful. That section in SSHE applies more to when your opponents ALSO have marginal holdings. For the flop action, in a draw-heavy paired board, top pair is probably no good on the river.

[hanski 0]

i cant delete my posts?

[hanski 0]

I think the problem is preflop play.Whenever I'm reading a hand history over and over again and the decisions and board get more and more marginal, it usually means I need to back up and see if I can find a better way to change the way it ended up.I think KdTd in the CO is raise or fold. That makes your flop raise a lot more powerful. That section in SSHE applies more to when your opponents ALSO have marginal holdings. For the flop action, in a draw-heavy paired board, top pair is probably no good on the river.

well, considering no one raised preflop, and the draw heavy board, i would come to the conclusion that my opponents do have marginal hands.is limping in with a big suited hand in a multi-way pot that bad?I should always raise this?

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Honestly, I don't feel like I know enough about limit to TELL you one way or the other.I just know that you have way more leniency getting creative from button or CO in a ring game... and I feel very sure that if you raise preflop, either SB doesn't bet the flop or MP3 doesn't raise.And then WE get to raise the flop instead of other people, AND we have more fold equity because we raised preflop!And that changes everything.

[hanski 0]

ok cool, nice explanation. now that you've elaborated, i understand the reasoning and agree. thanks

[screech 0]

is limping in with a big suited hand in a multi-way pot that bad?

No.

I should always raise this?

Generally, you should usually raise two big suited cards in LP after limpers.You should never fold this hand preflop. You should usually raise.

Ok to call with FD+overs, no one caps this right?

I like just calling MP's raise, but when SB 3-bets, you should cap for value. Turn is standard.River is beautiful.

[Briguy 0]

I'm guessing that MP3 had 9's (from the fact that he felt the need to yell at you for chasing your huge draw). In that case, he made a pretty big mistake by not raising preflop. NH, and next time tell MP3 that you would've folded to a preflop raise. That always helps the tilting screamers.

[hotbacon 0]

is limping in with a big suited hand in a multi-way pot that bad?

No.

I should always raise this?

Generally, you should usually raise two big suited cards in LP after limpers.You should never fold this hand preflop. You should usually raise.

Ok to call with FD+overs, no one caps this right?

I like just calling MP's raise, but when SB 3-bets, you should cap for value. Turn is standard.River is beautiful.

Why do you not want SB to overcall the river and open the action up for MP3?

[screech 0]

Why do you not want SB to overcall the river and open the action up for MP3?

We have marginal hand that may beat MP, but may lose to SB.SB probably has overcards. Occassionally, he will have an passively played overpair. His call on the turn means we may be able to push him off this overpair. If SB has overcards, he will not overcall. If he does overcall, he has us beat. So we don't want overcalls in this situation. Raising will increase our chances to win.Of course, if you don't think SB will fold an overpair, and you think he may call with AK, calling is clearly better.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Quote: is limping in with a big suited hand in a multi-way pot that bad? No.

I am trying to avoid results based thinking.Sometimes I wonder if a flaw in my game is that...1) because I post here so much trying to help people...2) I let my deductive reasoning work backwards sometimes so...3) That makes a leak in my game because I can't think of the right way to play it at the time.I also realize that preflop leaks can be very small if your postflop play can make up for it.But other things being equal, at a 2/4 Party table you just sat down at, posted in the cutoff, with no reads at all, and 2 limpers in front of you, and it's on you with KdTd in the posted cut-off...Do you click the "check" button or do you click the "raise" button?I just love being aggressive and I raaaaaaise.

[screech 0]

If I'm in LP, I'm raising any two suited cards 10 or higher.Posting in CO makes no difference.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Quote: Ok to call with FD+overs, no one caps this right? I like just calling MP's raise, but when SB 3-bets, you should cap for value.

I agree that since the other guy is whipsawed for 3 bets on the flop, it's okay to cap with a NUT flush draw because we only need 2 other people in the hand + dead money preflop to make capping +EV, even against sets.But... we DON'T have the nut flush draw, someone else COULD have it, or they COULD have AdXx where Xx is top pair, and this is how I talk myself out of things. I hate marginal situations. I like easy decisions.That's why I started thinking about if raising preflop changes stuff.So is it okay to cap anyway? What else do we put the bettor and the caller on?

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

i cant delete my posts?

If you accidentally post twice, you can only delete your last post (the bottom one). It has an X next to the edit button.

[hanski 0]

gotcha, that is strange though

[hotbacon 0]

Quote: Ok to call with FD+overs, no one caps this right? I like just calling MP's raise, but when SB 3-bets, you should cap for value.

I agree that since the other guy is whipsawed for 3 bets on the flop, it's okay to cap with a NUT flush draw because we only need 2 other people in the hand + dead money preflop to make capping +EV, even against sets.But... we DON'T have the nut flush draw, someone else COULD have it, or they COULD have AdXx where Xx is top pair, and this is how I talk myself out of things. I hate marginal situations. I like easy decisions.That's why I started thinking about if raising preflop changes stuff.So is it okay to cap anyway? What else do we put the bettor and the caller on?

It's a pretty easy cap. You have two overcards and the 2nd nut flush draw, so your equity is almost definately > 33%. Even if it isn't, you can get a free card on the turn.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Even if it isn't, you can get a free card on the turn.

I forgot about that.That'd be a pretty funny cap to the guy who got whipsawed, lol.

[Abbaddabba 0]

This isnt a raise orfold situation preflop. Folding would ridiculously tight and limping definitely isn't terrible. You dont need to isolate given that yourhand plays well in multiway pots. The raise isbasically for value.Raising is preferable to limping, but limpingis definitely better than folding.cf this was K/Toff, _then_ you could argue that it's a raise or fold situationc

[rog 0]

With a hand like this, raising is never wrong. If it thins the field, your top-pair chances improve. If you end up 5 or 6 ways for 2 bets pre-flop, it's for value since there's a lot of big hands you can hit. Either way, it gives you more fold equity on later streets. If no A comes, your equity is pretty high. I hate to say never, but in low-stakes, where you rarely need to change gears to make money, I would never limp this hand in an unraised pot from late position.

[akishore 0]

i have just skimmed replies, but i am SHOCKED at some of them.preflop is close, not a big deal. i'd raise it.but the flop should be three-bet!! if the flop bettor folds any hand, and it turns out you are ahead of the flop raiser (if he has another flush draw, or maybe if he folds the next street since he was just making a play with second pair, or if he has a straight draw, etc.), this is great. this is also much more preferable if you raise preflop, since the pot will be big.the flop is also an easy cap for value, but screech mentioned this.turn is fine.river is horrible!!! what kind of better hand do you expect SB to fold?? on the other hand, if the flop raiser (river bettor) flopped a set or has a busted draw, he's not paying you off. or if he turned a straight, you're losing two more bets. the river raise is horrendous!! can't stress that enough. this is a clear go-for-overcalls situation because you have a STRONG hand (a really good two pair). you DON'T have a "marginal" hand that justifies raising.and please, learn the reason for raising the river with a marginal hand in some situations. don't just think "marginal, i raise".aseem

[KDawgCometh 2]

I'm raising PF, like, all the time there. Its both for value and to thin the field, pretty cool how that one works.flop. must. be. three-bet. seriously. Pump that pot, gain position, and try to gain a free card, makes sense doesn't it.turn-standardriver- meh. I'd rather just call, your hand isn't that strong, its only a okay TP there. You shouldn't be like: Me like Hand, Me Raise. all you have is a pair of tens with a king kicker.

[screech 0]

river is horrible!!! what kind of better hand do you expect SB to fold?? on the other hand, if the flop raiser (river bettor) flopped a set or has a busted draw, he's not paying you off. or if he turned a straight, you're losing two more bets. the river raise is horrendous!! can't stress that enough. this is a clear go-for-overcalls situation because you have a STRONG hand (a really good two pair). you DON'T have a "marginal" hand that justifies raising.

Raise for value?What do you expect SB to call with that you beat?Raising may also get him to fold an overpair given how passively he played the turn. This doesn't happen often, but when it does, it saves us the the whole pot.

[rog 0]

I dont 3-bet this flop. Since 2 respected posters say it's a must, I guess this is a leak in my game. I dont get the rationale for the 3-bet...somebody want to clarify? Is this cleaning up overs, or is it for value with probably a 12 out draw?

[MrNiceGuy 0]

Raising may also get him to fold an overpair given how passively he played the turn.  This doesn't happen often, but when it does, it saves us the the whole pot.

If SB is EXTREMELY weak-tight, he might play JJ this way, and might fold it to a river raise. I don't think he both has an overpair and folds it often enough to spend a bet on the river for that reason (it would have to happen more than 1/15 times, plus our hand would still have to beat MP).SB has played this hand like he has a draw (either a flush draw or 32). I'm assuming he's probably folding the river anyway. So, if I raise the river, it's because I think MP probably has just an 8, and so I'm raising for value. Without a read, I think this is a call.

[akishore 0]

river is horrible!!! what kind of better hand do you expect SB to fold?? on the other hand, if the flop raiser (river bettor) flopped a set or has a busted draw, he's not paying you off. or if he turned a straight, you're losing two more bets. the river raise is horrendous!! can't stress that enough. this is a clear go-for-overcalls situation because you have a STRONG hand (a really good two pair). you DON'T have a "marginal" hand that justifies raising.

Raise for value?What do you expect SB to call with that you beat?Raising may also get him to fold an overpair given how passively he played the turn. This doesn't happen often, but when it does, it saves us the the whole pot.

dude, i don't see your point of view at all. i'm not trying to be stubborn, but... what??if you raise, SB folds soooo many hands that you beat. and no hand better than yours is folding to two cold there... JJ?? if he's played JJ like this, he's not folding to two cold.you raise your river hands with a TIGHT player behind you against a LOOSE bettor with a MARGINAL hand, such that the tight player might fold a BETTER hand. your hand is not marginal here! and no better hand is folding behind you! (a better two pair, trips or a straight). you're also losing more money when MP-whatever has you beat and is three-betting. you're also making ZERO value when MP-whatever was bluffing on a missed draw and he folds to your raise.this is so textbook go-for-overcall to me...(sorry if this comes off as arrogant, you know there's none of that intended)aseem