18 replies to this topic

[Raindog]

Has happened to me a couple times now. Pot Limit. In middle position, I have AA58, double suited.5 people see flop. It comes A88.Small blind bets minimum, big blind calls, early position calls, and I....In limit, it seems to me you jam it right away. In pot limit, however, I am not sure what the best approach is. Would you call the minimum bet or perhaps make a small raise to build a pot and see what the turn brings. If the low comes on the turn, you then just try to build as big a pot as possible while not scaring out anyone. If no low comes on the turn I could then see making a large bet to charge anyone who wants to draw to some sort of low.If you make a big raise on the flop or pot it right away, seems to me you likely drive everyone out. You win the whole pot but it will be a small one.What's the recommended play here.

[Vman96]

Here I probably would make a modest raise on the flop and apply a lot more pressure on the turn if a high card hits. You do want to keep people in to an extent drawing to half the pot. You have everyone crushed for high unless someone has 88.It also depends on your table...if your table is stupid enough to call a pot bet with just an 8 or a low draw....by all means pot it.

[Kendren]

Nobody can have 88, our hero has one in the hole. They're drawing to runner runner quads.You might try a min raise here. Keeps people in, while building the pot. And maybe somebody pots it over the top of you, then you're in great shape.

[Vman96]

Kendren said:

Nobody can have 88, our hero has one in the hole. They're drawing to runner runner quads.You might try a min raise here. Keeps people in, while building the pot. And maybe somebody pots it over the top of you, then you're in great shape.

Youre right...thanks I missed that.

[Wintermute]

Raindog said:

Has happened to me a couple times now. Pot Limit. In middle position, I have AA58, double suited.5 people see flop. It comes A88.Small blind bets minimum, big blind calls, early position calls, and I....In limit, it seems to me you jam it right away. In pot limit, however, I am not sure what the best approach is. Would you call the minimum bet or perhaps make a small raise to build a pot and see what the turn brings. If the low comes on the turn, you then just try to build as big a pot as possible while not scaring out anyone. If no low comes on the turn I could then see making a large bet to charge anyone who wants to draw to some sort of low.If you make a big raise on the flop or pot it right away, seems to me you likely drive everyone out. You win the whole pot but it will be a small one.What's the recommended play here.

I think you have to raise the maximum here. Letting a low draw come on the turn for less than the maximum will offset the missed opportunity cost of extracting medium-sized bets from low draws in the event that the low never comes.Also, there is a chance the other 8 will play back at you, and you can get everything in with the high completely locked up. Occasionally, A8 will be in another's hand and you will get all the money in with the other player drawing dead... if you allow a situation like this to pass by on the flop and a low hits, then you'll surely be kicking yourself.

[Rocketwadster]

Should we not make any low draws pay the maximum to try for half of the pot? Push push push... 8)

[JSCME]

With three others in the pot, I want to keep as many callers as possible, therefore would only moderate raise to build up the pot. If that low hits, I want to make sure that there are enough people in that I can make a small profit at least.

[smrphf]

I think the moderate raise is the best way to go. I would try to figure out what's the biggest raise I could make to try to push out the low, but keeping someone with an ace or 8 still in. It might not be possible to do both, but if you can keep the low guys drawing and the high guys drawing dead and still putting money in the middle, your in good shape. I think a maximum bet here screams of AA or A8 and will not build the pot as much as the moderate bet.

[Fritzmania]

Woo hoo, my first post!I know you guys don't know me from Adam, but Vman does. I play a lot of PL O8/b on Ultimate bet and also play limits up to $10-$20 regularly.This is an easy pot raise.

Quote

Should we not make any low draws pay the maximum to try for half of the pot? Push push push...

Absolutely. You have to make the low draws pay big time. Some of you are assuming that you have to keep the 3rd 8 around to make any money at this pot. I have to disagree. The low draws sticking around will be enough to build this pot. And there's no way someone with only 2 pair stays around to a moderate raise unless they are a total donk.You are probably not up against AA here or you would have seen a raise pre-flop. If it does get re-popped to you when you raise, then you can probably safely assume you are up against Aces and fold.Also, it would be a mistake to bring other high draws in along for the ride. Your high hand is still vulnerable. What if someone stayed with Q-Q-2-3 or K-K-2-3 and a K or Q hit on the turn after your modest flop raise? It is not unreasonable to assume.Don't slow play non-nut boats in Omaha...you'll find yourself on the short end of the stick too many times.

[smrphf]

you have the AA in your hand, plus an 8, the only thing that can beat your hand is the runner runner quads so everybody in the hand is almost literally drawing completely dead, and there is no way someone can have quad 8's. I don't think you saw the hole cards correct.

[Fritzmania]

smrphf said:

you have the AA in your hand, plus an 8, the only thing that can beat your hand is the runner runner quads so everybody in the hand is almost literally drawing completely dead, and there is no way someone can have quad 8's.  I don't think you saw the hole cards correct.

Well crap then, discount everything I said.Slow play that sucker. Put out a modest raise to suck the low draws along. If you're lucky, you'll get them quartered.Great way to start my FCP posting career. :oops:

[smrphf]

if your lucky, the next 2 cards will be face cards

[DanielNegreanu]

I vote for the smallish raise. Not the minimum, but a teaser that is small enough where everyone calls it. You might get REALLY lucky and have s player with an 8 and a low draw move all in. Or, Someone out there might just have the case A-8 and you could get all in against him if he re-raises. The smallish raise gives him a chance to do that.

[JacKingOff_suit]

Without the actual hand history, it's really hard to say if potting it is better or a smallish raise.What's the current pot size, how about the other players' stack? You need to calculate if it's better to win a small pot or splitting a large pot, the bottom line is, which option wins you the most money? Also ask yourself if potting will keep other players in? or how about a smallish raise, what kind of players will call your raise with what hands?

[dank773]

It's cool to have DN post in this section...

[dank773]

Oops, just noticed the section this is in, I found it in the Omaha 8 area.

[Brownbeard]

I would put maximum pressure to force the low draws out before they get half your money.

[Raindog]

This was on a $.50/.50 table.For what its worth, I raised it up. A guy who only had $.80 left in front of him called all in with a garbage hand, everyone else folded. I felt afterwards like a smallish raise would have been more useful.I guess another question I have is whether or not I should properly be raising with this hand pre-flop after there are several limpers to me. Pokerroom so Pokertracker not giving me stack sizes:Seat 1: Army_EyeSeat 2: Tcats37Seat 3: Hero [ AH,AS,5H,8S ]Seat 4: shootingdethSeat 5: tophilSeat 7: magic-busSeat 8: blutoalgerSeat 9: BarneyFSeat 10: eddie 393ANTES/BLINDStophil posts blind ($0.50), magic-bus posts blind ($0.50).PRE-FLOPblutoalger calls $0.50, BarneyF calls $0.50, eddie 393 folds, Army_Eye folds, Tcats37 calls $0.50, HERO calls $0.50, shootingdeth folds, tophil checks, magic-bus checks.FLOP [board cards 8C,8D,AD ]tophil checks, magic-bus checks, blutoalger bets $0.50, BarneyF calls $0.50, Tcats37 calls $0.50, HERO bets $5, tophil calls $0.80 and is all-in, magic-bus folds, blutoalger folds, BarneyF folds, Tcats37 folds.TURN [board cards 8C,8D,AD,4S ]RIVER [board cards 8C,8D,AD,4S,3D ]SHOWDOWNHERO shows [ AH,AS,5H,8S ]tophil shows [ 4H,7C,5D,JC ]HERO wins $7, tophil wins $2.80.

[Eastwood Jr.]

This seems like a sure fire trapping situation to me. I would make whatever play you believe has the best implied odds pertaining to the player you are up agianst. If you think he has an 8 and you know he'll go broke with it then step on the gas before another potential trouble card hits for him. If you aren't sure how strong or committed to the pot he is then smooth call and re-assess on the turn. If you think that he'll fall for it then making the minimum raise is an option but probably not the best one. Remember since it is PL game the goal is to win the most money not the most bets. By minimum raising you basically are committing to playing a small pot with a a huge hand. The reason why is that any player worth his salt is going to smell a rat if you make this type of play. He may call you down but if you never attempt to trap him or put him to the test then you just aren't giving yourself a chance to win a monster pot. All you're really doing is giving him a chance to redraw on the turn and make a potential low hand on the river. It's the staple reason why minimum raising with strong hands is a play rarely made by top players unless they are value betting on the river.Turn play would be critical in this hand. If a low card fell then I would make a good sized raise (less than the pot though), regardless of how I played the hand on the flop, but if a high card fell then I would really be in trap mode. If my opponent had shown willlingness to be the aggressor but was capable of making a good laydown then I would continue to smooth call and then raise or reraise for value on the river. If he seems like a total chump then I might just push it in right there and ease my mind for a river card. If he checked I might backdoor check, if I thought he was giving up the pot but I would probably bet something unlesss I was pretty sure it was a "give up check."This is a hand where you must be careful not to give away signs of strength since you have the board locked. When you do decide to reraise take your time and pick the right amount to arouse just enough suspicion that will make him call. (Don't just speedily hit the pot bet button as if you'd been planning to re-raise all along.) Two big things to remember. 1. Even though you have the nuts you should still try to figure out what your opponent is holding. This will help you play your hand accordingly.2. Take your time. Too many players play online poker like they have a bus to catch. Lets face it, in key situations there is no way you can make your best decison in a NL or PL game without even thinking about it. I'm not advocating that you take the max time limit before folding a rag hand, but take 5-10 secdonds with each decision in order to assess the unique variables of every decision. (Instantly betting the pot or going all in is one of the surefire signs of a retard.)If you do these two things on a consistent basis it will improve your play in all games but especially in Omaha where there are so many nuances, nooks and cranny's to a well played hand.Good luck and I look forward to hearing some responses.