23 replies to this topic

[akishore]

party 2/4 ringbb is a gambler (loose-aggro/passive), button is a maniac (loose-aggro/aggro).i'm sb with K K . button open-limps, i raise, bb calls, button calls.(6 sb) J 8 2 i bet, i call, bb calls.(9 bb) 6 i check, bb checks, button bets, i call, bb calls.(18 bb) 6 i bet, i call.aseem

[screech]

I lead the turn. I'd rather trap BB for 1 than make him face 2 cold.If button raises, I call, and do it all agian on the river.

[akishore]

screech said:

I lead the turn.  I'd rather trap BB for 1 than make him face 2 cold.If button raises, I call, and do it all agian on the river.

i preferred protecting my hand. straight draws abound, and he could hit two pair or trips.aseem

[Abbaddabba]

Wow, how about giving us the username of the BB?I'll buddy list that for when im ready to move up. That must be a record number of cold calls in a single hand.Not sure about the checkraise on the turn.You're not good here >66% of the time. Almost all hands that have you beat are 3betting. You're much more likely to get an overcall from the BB when he's drawing extremely slim, and no amount of bets is going to knock him out if he has something that you're particularly vulnerable to (a of spades). Leading out at least drags the BB along for the ride one bet at a time when you're behind but drawing.Also - why gaybet the river?The only thing that the river helps with is if he had J/8 and got counterfeited.

[screech]

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i preferred protecting my hand. straight draws abound, and he could hit two pair or trips.

You protected your hand when you 3-bet the flop. He never folded for two cold getting 6:1 there. What makes you think he'll fold for 2 cold getting 6:1 on the turn?

[Abbaddabba]

His pair of 6's. OR NOT!But he realized at the river that he was beat by a flush, so he laid down his trips.

[akishore]

Abbaddabba said:

Wow, how about giving us the username of the BB?

cashman4321.

Abbaddabba said:

Not sure about the checkraise on the turn.You're not good here >66% of the time.  Almost all hands that have you beat are 3betting.

this ain't the river, dude. i don't have to be "good"/best. i do it to protect my hand and get it heads-up.

Abbaddabba said:

You're much more likely to get an overcall from the BB when he's drawing extremely slim,

when is this ever the case?? this is rare and it only happens when he has K-x, whether x is paired or not.

Abbaddabba said:

and no amount of bets is going to knock him out if he has something that you're particularly vulnerable to (a of spades).

that's not all i'm vulnerable to... how about any pair that has 5 outs on me, any gutshot, etc.denying him the odds to chase makes him either call incorrectly or fold and increase my equity.

Abbaddabba said:

Leading out at least drags the BB along for the ride one bet at a time when you're behind but drawing.

my hand is not strong enough to drag him along when he can have a good number of outs to draw out on me.don't make me say it... big pot, want to increase your winning chances.

Abbaddabba said:

Also - why gaybet the river?The only thing that the river helps with is if he had J/8 and got counterfeited.

eh. thought it gave me the best two pair. at the time, i probably acted too quickly and didn't realize that yeah, only J-8 gets counterfeitted... any other flopped two pair is a boat now.aseem

[akishore]

screech said:

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i preferred protecting my hand. straight draws abound, and he could hit two pair or trips.

You protected your hand when you 3-bet the flop. He never folded for two cold getting 6:1 there. What makes you think he'll fold for 2 cold getting 6:1 on the turn?

screech, you assume everyone thinks like you (logically) WAY too often. the fish isn't thinking in terms of odds!!you know EVERY fish will call two more *after they've put in one* WAY more willingly than they will call two cold when they have nothing invested!he is much more likely to fold to two cold on the turn (having invested nothing on this street) than on the flop (having invested one).aseem

[screech]

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screech, you assume everyone thinks like you (logically) WAY too often.

I know. Bad habit.

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you know EVERY fish will call two more *after they've put in one* WAY more willingly than they will call two cold when they have nothing invested!

Yeah. Too beat the fish, I gotta start thinking like one.Also, by raising you give them the chance to make a mistake by calling.

[Actuary]

Aseem:tell me how i played this Preflopi raise,Flopi bet, i three-bet, i callTurni check, i raise, i callRiveri bet, i call. that's what I see.FWIW, it looks like major spewage.

[akishore]

lol. what would you have done in each spot?aseem

[Abbaddabba]

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that's not all i'm vulnerable to... how about any pair that has 5 outs on me, any gutshot, etc. denying him the odds to chase makes him either call incorrectly or fold and increase my equity.

What im saying is that you're usually drawing anyways, so his draw doesnt affect you. The times that you hit your draw (either a set of kings or a flush), no potential draws for him are completed... unless his draw was something too big to fold for even 2 bets (ace of spades or a set). When you don't hit your draw, you're usually losing the pot anyways. Under that category of "usually" is where you're getting 3bet by the button and putting in 3 bets as the dog instead of 1. On the other hand, when you do just put in one, you get called by the monkey BB who is usually drawing dead to you and the button (you're on a draw also, but a live one). On occasions that you are ahead, yeah, you lose some equity in the pot at the expense of giving the BB a cheaper call. I think what you lose in expected value from those circumstances is outweighed by the times you're drawing and putting in way too many bets as a dog.

[Actuary]

I misread too muich.I'm not qualified.

[akishore]

i don't understand how you can discount the BB's significance and presence so much.how do you figure he's drawing dead to me/BB???and him folding a draw certainly does increase my pot equity. simple example, BB has J-8 and he has 6-x. the 6 pairing gives me the best hand, but not if BB stays in. another example, button is overplaying something like As Jh (top pair and now nut flush draw) and BB has a gutshot or anything. in this case, him folding a draw means i capture almost all the equity!i feel that your passive "just call" line is wrong in this big pot. you need to get aggressive and take chances in big pots.aseem

[Abbaddabba]

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and him folding a draw certainly does increase my pot equity. simple example, BB has J-8 and he has 6-x. the 6 pairing gives me the best hand, but not if BB stays in.

I think that's the only situation where you're behind the button and protecting from the BB actually has value (albeit there are only 2!!! cards that you're protecting against). Any other time that you're behind , you're drawing to your flush and king outs exclusively. J/8 is the best you can hope for if you're behind. It looks like a made flush or a set to me. With a made flush you're protecting against nothing. With a set, you're protecting against an inside straight draw minus the one card that completes your flush. 0 cards or 3 cards. In the case of J/8, you're protecting against 2 cards.Against AJ, you're protecting against at most 8 cards (against the BB), but probably less. Most likely hand for the button seems like a made flush, meaning protecting has zero value. Second most likely is a set. Protecting has marginal value there. AJ seems unlikely. I dont know anyone that limps from the button with AJ in an unopened pot. Limping from the button suggests that he wants multiway action, meaning a pocket pair or suited cards.

[akishore]

are we completely forgetting that there is a chance i might have the best hand on the turn??button is a maniac, remember?and no, i don't think him open-limping on the button means anything. it just means he doesn't know enough about poker to know that open-limping there with any hand is almost always wrong (few exceptions being AA/KK against a maniac SB/BB, etc.). check out jim brier's most recent cardplayer article, he mentions this in there.aseem

[Abbaddabba]

I didnt read the maniac part, actually.That makes it a lot more likely that you're ahead and makes protecting desirable.edit;of course a gamboooling big blind means that he's far less likely to have something you need to protect against.

[screech]

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of course a gamboooling big blind means that he's far less likely to have something you need to protect against.

I thought this at first too. It's wrong.By raising we exploit the big blinds mistakes even more.

[akishore]

so i played this fine?aseem

[akishore]

it should be noted that Button went into my buddy list right away after this hand.he had J 9 .yes, reread the whole hand. one pair of jacks, no flush draw, the whole way.aseem