Jump to content


omaha hi/lo beginner's guide, part 1


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#21 ahosang

ahosang

    Trolling FCP like everyone else...

  • Members
  • 1,282 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Under a bridge - ready to troll
  • Interests:Trolling
  • Favorite Poker Game:Trolling

Posted 09 February 2005 - 10:30 AM

6-handed goes more into reading of your opponents' styles, being aggressive pre-flop with playable hands, and slight loosening of betting standards post-flop(depending on the oppo). If you're not yet an expert, and have just mastered the basics, then 10-handed is much preferable. Actually, 10-handed is preferable in any case, but 6-handed is not recommended for beginners.

#22 codyscherer

codyscherer

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 38 posts

Posted 09 February 2005 - 01:24 PM

Well, I have actually found 6 handed to be better for me. Even at 1-2 fixed. I play just a little loser pre flop with no raises, but in 6 handed, people are raising and calling with very poor hands all the way to the river. They think that since only 3 people were in the whole time, they must have one way covered. I also recommend keeping track of the names of the players. I have a list of about 6 on Pokerstars that are just aweful. Calling to the river with no low and high pair on board with flush draws. It is just amazing. You will get rivered badly every once in awhile but you know you will get it back. I folded on the river yesterday because the board was q7273 I had a flush and low draw with the queen. Missed every thing so all I had was two pair, queens and sevens with ace kicker. There was no bet on fourth but a bet and raise on the river. So I folded. There was no low won and the guy with tt down took the pot. It was sick and at the 1-2 fixed it was almost a 20 pot. Just an example that if you get the right table, 6 handed is great.

#23 Nelson

Nelson

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 09 February 2005 - 01:49 PM

akishoreThanks for cleaning up my open boat example and expanding on the reasoning (more outs) Posting from work is always a crunch. Top trips run down little boats all the time for a reason. 8) While I think playability has been covered, I started a topic on pre-flop raising. With so few hands having more than a 4% advantage before the flop, what do you raise? The answer (in my mind), pre-flop raising is all about deception and position. Everyone thinks you have AA23 suited (the only hand everyone thinks is good enough for a raise). But i'm sure there is more to it than that.
Legal poker rooms in VA is my dream!

#24 akishore

akishore

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 6,228 posts
  • Location:Cambridge (Boston), MA
  • Interests:Poker, jazz, programming, taekwondo, rock climbing, movies, etc.

Posted 09 February 2005 - 03:24 PM

i pre-flop raise every time i have a scooping hand, be it AA23 double-suited or AK24 single ace-suited or even AKQ2 single-suited. i also raise with any dominating high-hand , and dominating low hands.really, i'm going to post this big thread about common mistakes and some advanced strategies, but real quick, here's some quick points about why pre-flop raising is so important:- some hands will really do a LOT better than others. AK24 dominates AJ95 madly, even though the statistics might not say so. AK24 will scoop many more pots, and has much more power to really play correctly post-flop. you have the strongest hand, so make them pay pre-flop. if some hands are much better off pre-flop, doesn't it make sense to get money in pre-flop even though you haven't seen a flop? granted, you will miss some flops, but in the long run, not raising hands like AK24 is like not raising AK or AQ in hold'em because you might miss.- high connecting cards are monsters, because of two reasons. first, if 0 or 1 low cards land, you've made the low-only draws pay double pre-flop and they'll be forced to lay down their hand or go for runner-runner, and better yet, you're aiming to win the whole pot now, so your pot odds double and your implied odds TRIPLE or more depending on how many people are in the hand. second, they offer nut flush and nut straight values, because any high cards above 8 that land will give you good wraparound draws, and if you have AKQ9 for example, you will always have the nut straight.- by raising scooping hands, you build up the pot for both ends of your draws. even if you don't scoop, you get as much money in the pot as possible since winning only half the pot makes it even more important to get people to pay as much as they can (which is easy to do since nobody folds to a raise pre-flop in limit omaha hi/lo unless they were planning to fold anyway--which itself is rare).- by raising strong low hands like A234 or A245, etc., you're building up the pot for your draw, which as we said, is important since you're only aiming to win half the pot. but be careful!! too many people raise with A2xx which is a massive mistake--you have no counterfeit protection and A2xx is the most common quartering hand. only raise when you have a STRONG low hand with counterfeit protection, preferably double, and both low, e.g. A234 or A245 or A246 or A235, etc. it's best to do it with A2 hands rather than A3 or 23, because you're drawing for 4 outs to be the nut low, which is not a good thing.hope this helps,aseem

#25 Alcatraz

Alcatraz

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 129 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, Ca

Posted 18 February 2005 - 05:05 AM

Just want to add a couple of things:When I multi table, I tend to multi table different games. I play better that way, and I suspect it has something to do with being ADD. It just makes me focus more. Of course, it's not uncommon for me to have 2 tables going, something up on the web (like this forum) and a TV show on all at the same time. The nuts is always there -- This isn't really true, although in loose passive low limit games it becomes more true. The more players that see the flop the more likely it is to be true. What is true, however, is that then nut "type" of hand is almost always there and certain types of hands are more likely to be the stone cold nuts than others.What I mean is that a suited board will nearly always have a flush, a paired board will nearly always have a boat, a connected board will nearly always have a straight. With a suited board, if the nut flush is to the ace, it's there more often than not. If the nut flush is to the king or queen, it's a little less likely to be there.If an ace high straight is the nuts, count on it being there. If the nuts is an 8 high straight, it may or may not be there. On a KJ654 rainbow board, a 73 or even a 32 has a decent shot of taking the high. On a KJA35 board, you can expect to see a QT most of the time.Top boat will usualy win. Yes, quads happen more often in Omaha than in hold'em but not so often that you should fear them. If the pair on the board is 6 through 9 then then chances of quads go down. AA will almost always be the winner on a board of A7Q72, for example, and will still usualy win against AQQ72.If the board pairs and you hold one of the cards, your chances of winning decrease with every overcard that hits the board. For example, holding A7 on an A7K7Q board is a strong hand but vulnerable to QQ, KK, and AA, all of which are played by most players. However, holding A7 against A7672 is only vulnerable to AA (but will probably split the pot with a low)At low limits at least, typicaly the minimum winning high hand is a straight. Unless you have 3 or less people seeing the flop, it's rare to see a hand lower than a straight take the high.Here are a few other guidelines for starting hands. You want 4 cards that all work with each other, preferably in more than one way. For example, A :D 2 :) 3 :) K :) is a strong hand. The Ace is working with both the 2 and the 3 for lows, and with the K for high. The Ace is also suited with the 3 for the nut flush possibility. The 2 works with the A and 3 for lows and is suited with the K for flushes. Etc... each card works with at least one other card and plays more than one way. Compare that to A :D 2 :) 5 :) 9 :D this hand is marginal. The A and 2 work well together for low, but your counterfeit protection is that raggy 5. The 9 serves only one purpose in the hand, and that's being suited with the ace. Every card here works with another card, but not in nearly so many ways. Finaly a hand like A :club: 3 :D 7 :D 9 :) is pretty much dreck.When I first started playing Omaha/8, someone gave me this advice: Never play a hand that has a 6, 7, 8 or a 9 in it. As a general guideline for starting players, it's not bad advice.

#26 akishore

akishore

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 6,228 posts
  • Location:Cambridge (Boston), MA
  • Interests:Poker, jazz, programming, taekwondo, rock climbing, movies, etc.

Posted 18 February 2005 - 06:19 AM

alcatraz,that's perfectly good advice. i wrote this guide for beginner's and so, of course, it is simplified in many ways. in any shorthanded omaha hi/lo game, the nuts will not often take down the pot, but you're right--the nut type of hand usually will, though it depends on the board. i'll confidently bet out of my straight or flush on a paired board if there are 3 to the flop and my bet isn't raised, and i'll confidently bet out my top two on a ragged unsuited board with unlikely low possibility, etc.and the advice you mentioned about handling boats, etc. is all right on. that kind of stuff just comes with experience, and you learn to recognize those situations over time and read hands and boards more precisely. you will also learn to play the person more, and to make plays/bluffs in certain situations. this is especially important in PLO8, but all that comes with time and experience, and i didn't want to include that stuff in my beginner's guide.as an example, though, if the flop is four-way, and it comes three-suited, i'll usually bet out if there's even one check to me. that kind of board is trash for most people, and if it's not, they have a made flush, and if i get any kind of action, i'm done with my bluff because i'm beat. or if a flop comes TT2, i'll bet out if there's four or less people in the pot, because people either hit it or didn't. the latter example comes from super/system 2, btw.finally, your advice about starting hands is correct, and if i can add/modify a few things, here they are:first, it is usually profitable if three of your cards work together very well and the fourth is a dangler. an example would A239 with a suited ace. it is rare to get a hand where all four cards work together perfectly, so playing hands where three cards work together strongly is a fine play. however, avoid the temptation to play two-card hands like A279 or any uncoordinated single suited ace hand.second, not playing any hand with a 6, 7, 8 or 9 in it is being a little extreme, IMHO. it really depends on the other cards, but yes, you should never play a hand like 6789 or 4789, or any similar middle connecting hands. add to the list of hands you shouldn't play too much are middle pocket pairs unless you're in late position in an unraised pot, etc. even then, play them very cautiously.anyway, good post.aseem

#27 custom36

custom36

    FCP Veteran, Politico

  • Members
  • 16,157 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Wisconsin
  • Favorite Poker Game:Limit Hold'em

Posted 04 July 2005 - 02:43 PM

shameless bump

#28 thespoil

thespoil

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 227 posts
  • Interests:poker, ice hockey, music, cooking, reading, synthesizers

Posted 05 July 2005 - 12:37 PM

Custom36 said:

shameless bump
Good call.

#29 custom36

custom36

    FCP Veteran, Politico

  • Members
  • 16,157 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Wisconsin
  • Favorite Poker Game:Limit Hold'em

Posted 05 July 2005 - 06:55 PM

thespoil said:

Custom36 said:

shameless bump
Good call.
I knew you were bluffing.

#30 thespoil

thespoil

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 227 posts
  • Interests:poker, ice hockey, music, cooking, reading, synthesizers

Posted 05 July 2005 - 09:39 PM

Custom36 said:

thespoil said:

Custom36 said:

shameless bump
Good call.
I knew you were bluffing.
I had to. It's my lucky hand.

#31 Kilroy

Kilroy

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 55 posts

Posted 05 July 2005 - 09:44 PM

thespoil said:

Custom36 said:

thespoil said:

Custom36 said:

shameless bump
Good call.
I knew you were bluffing.
I had to. It's my lucky hand.
Fish

#32 Kilroy

Kilroy

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 55 posts

Posted 05 July 2005 - 09:48 PM

in all seriousness, great post. Cant wait to start to play, ive been looking to learn some stragey for Hi/lo.

#33 BETNFOOL

BETNFOOL

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 257 posts
  • Location:TEMPLE, TEXAS
  • Interests:GOLF N CARDS

Posted 22 July 2005 - 07:14 PM

akishore said:

omaha hi/lo beginner's guidepart 1: the basicsi am, by no means, an expert on the game. however, at the low/micro-limits, this game is very beatable--easily. i feel i have enough skill at these limits to write a guide for it. remember, however, that all my advice is specifically for the low limits. it probably won't work effectively if you're playing with good people who actually know what they're doing.like hold'em, winners thrive more on bad players than on their own skill. unlike hold'em, the bad players are HORRENDOUS, not just bad. they have no understanding of basic strategy, and while hold'em can often reward bad players through schooling (giving each other pot odds) and luck, omaha does this to a much smaller degree.another difference is that while hold'em is a simple game to learn to the average person, omaha is not. with two cards, people recognize which cards are monsters (AA, AK, KK, etc.) and most have some sense of which cards are terrible (2-7, 2-8, etc.). omaha is not the case. people see potential in EVERY hand, and they don't have the ability to think what other people might hold.omaha is also a much more mathematical game. luck plays a much smaller role because often you can have the nuts on the flop or turn and other people can be drawing dead to baby straights/flushes/boats. you won't get huge suckouts as much, rather, you'll get mathematical draws that hit 1 in 3 times, e.g. nut flush draws.finally, some people complain that omaha is a river game (since the river is often vital to a hand). however, unlike hold'em, the river does not give bad beats--it gives mathematical probabilities. if you hold the nuts on the turn, 3 out of 4 times it will hold up, so you bet on the turn regardless of the possibility of drawing out. if you hold the nut flush draw, you will hit it 1 in 5 times on the river, so if the pot is 6-way, you bet. i can't stress it enough, omaha is a game of probabilities--if you play them, you WILL win.this game can be played fixed limit or pot limit, but IMHO it works best fixed limit.i will be doing this in parts since it might get long.enjoy!basic rules:two players left of dealer post small and big blinds. everyone is dealt four cards. small betting round (preflop). then the flop (three board cards). small betting round. then the turn/fourth street. big betting round. then the river/fifth street. big betting round. then showdown.the best five card hand MUST have TWO and ONLY TWO hole cards, and THREE and ONLY THREE board cards. e.g. if the board is AAAAK, the nuts would be KKxx for Aces full of Kings. four of a kind is not possible since you can only use three board cards. another important application of this is that to have a flush, you must have two cards of that suit in your hole (unlike hold'em where you can have a flush with only one card).the high hand is the best five-card hand. the low hand is the same as any other split pot game. a low hand must have all five cards be 8 or lower. so if the board has three cards 8 or lower, a low hand is possible. otherwise, no low hand qualifies.low hands are read from high card down. 87654 is the worst low hand, while 5432A is the best low hand. since you read top-down, remember that 65432 beats 7432A (even though the first one has no ace). a good way to think of it is to think of the hand as a five-digit number--the lowest value wins. so 65 thousand beats 74 thousand, doesn't matter what the three lower cards are.the nuts:omaha hi/lo at the low limits is all about the nuts. 9 out of 10 hands, the nut high will win the high pot. 9 out of 10 qualifying low hands, the nut low will win. practice reading the nuts on the board and get used to relating your hand to the nuts. board: 5 :) 6 :) 8 :) K :) nut high: A :) x :club: nut low: A2 any suitnut high draws: KK, 88, 66, 55, K8, K6, K5, 86, 85, 65, 3 :D 4:diamond: , 4 :D 7 :D , 7 :) 8 :) nut low draws: A3, 23in the above example, if you don't have one of the above hands--either nuts or a nut draw--get out of the hand. you are drawing dead the vast majority of the time. personally, the nut low draws aren't good enough. you're drawing to at best 4 outs, but i listed them for the sake of saying that you are drawing to the nuts. with sets and two pair, you're drawing to boats, but really, the only one worth staying around for is KK. with others, if the board pairs (and doesn't give you quads), you will often be a baby boat. the straight flush draws aren't too good, either, you're drawing to two outs if it's open-ended or one out if it's gutshot.so taking all of that into consideration, the only draw worth staying around for is KK. the rest are longshot draws (by all means, if you have the odds, go for it, but beware having the second-best hand). one note is that if the board is paired, quads are the nuts, and are not uncommon. but if you have top boat, bet freely, and don't stick around with middle set hoping for quads because it's a one-outter.counterfeiting:if you hold A2KK, and the board is 34J9, don't be overly aggressive! while you have the nut low draw, you have no counterfeit protection. what i mean is that if an A or a 2 lands, you no longer have a low hand at all (three low board cards, but you only have one low non-pairing card in the hole). that's why it's important to play hands with counterfeit protection if you're aiming for the low. A234 is the best counterfeit protecting nut low draw hand. A23x is good, A24x is good, etc.you can also get counterfeited in your hole cards. if you're dealt AAAA, fold. you have no chance at anything but one pair, no low. if you're dealt AAAx, fold. many people get excited with pocket aces, not realizing that one of their two outs is dead. fold any three of a kind, i can't stress that enough!being suited/connected:when you have two cards of the same suit, you vastly increase the versatility of your hand, especially if the A is suited. ideally, the best hands are DOUBLE suited, meaning you have two diamonds and two clubs, for example. keep in mind that since omaha hi/lo is a game of the nuts, you want both to be suited with an A, or maybe a king (if an ace lands on the board).when you have two cards that connect, you also increase your chances of hitting a straight draw, just like in hold'em. if you have AKxx or KQxx, you have a chance at hitting a nut straight draw. similarly, if you have a hand that's four-straight (AKQJ for example), you have a great hand that serves as a wraparound straight draw, but i'll get to that later. just remember, suited is good, connecting is good, and double suited/connected is even better.scooping:the best hands are ones that aim to win both the high AND the low. this can earn you MONSTROUS pots, and i mean in the vicinity of 30-40 big bets! AA23 double suited is the best possible hand... why? because you have two nut flush possibilities, a nut boat possibility, and a monstrous nut low draw with counterfeit protection. with hands that work similarly and aim to win the whole pot (AK23, AAK2, AK24, etc.), scooping gives you a huge edge in a game.getting quartered:if you have the nut low and so does someone else does as well, you have been quartered--it's a bad experience. what this means is that the high hand will take half the pot, while the low half is split between the two nut lows, so you effectively get a quarter of the pot. same idea if you have the nut high that someone else does as well (rare but possible).with experience, you will recognize these situations. what's important is that you don't get overly aggressive in these situations, and here's why. if at the river, the pot is three-way and each of you put in $80, you add $240 to the pot. if you get quartered, you only get $60 back. you lost $20. if you capped the pot so each of you put in $160, the pot grows by $480, but each of you get only $120 back, so you lost even more, $40. so the more you raise, the more you lose.if the pot is four-way, you will break-even. if the pot is five-way or more, you MUST raise aggressively so that you can make a profit. it's possible to get only 1/6 of the pot if three people share the nut low/high, but that is extremely rare.on the flip side of the coin, having a powerful hand that aims for both high and low can be a monster in this situation, because you can get 3/4 of the pot if you win nut high and split nut low! if the pot is heads up and you have nut low with a decent high, be aggressive because even two pair can hold up for high hand and you can get 3/4 of the pot.preflop hands:omaha hi/lo is all about having the best hands preflop. with premium hands, you will dominate MANY other hands and can get huge pots. the best hands work together in some way. they should combine to give you straight value, flush value, full house value, or low value.premium high hands want less people in. AA9T for example should be played aggressively to thin the field, but if the pot is big, don't stay around if you don't hit your set or nut flush draw. same with KKxx and QQxx. if you have a hand like AKQJ, especially if the A and K are double-suited, you have a great hand for taking the high. The reason is that if any two broadway cards land, you have a wrap-around straight-draw and it's even better if two cards of your suit land, giving you a nut flush possibility as well.wrap-around straight draws are powerful in omaha, especially if the board is rainbow, unpaired and you have the nut straight possibility. if you have a hand like KQJT and the board is Q9x, you have 13 outs to the nut straight draw (3 kings, 3 jacks, 3 tens, 4 eights). if you have a draw like this, the implied odds also double because this either prevents a qualifying low (if the third card is not 8 or below) or it makes a low hand very unlikely (two low cards have to fall runner-runner). these kinds of draws are great because you have a chance to scoop the pot when no low hand qualifies.with low hands, you want counterfeit protection. having an A is vitally important if you want to go for the low. A2xx is ideal because you're drawing to any low card from 3 to 8. A3xx, on the other hand, is dangerous, because you're drawing to a 2 to have the nut low, but it's worth a shot if you're in late position and can see a cheap flop. same goes for 23xx, you're drawing to an A to get the nut low, and this can be quite beneficial because often it'll counterfeit other players' aces to prevent them from having nut low (decreasing the chances of you getting quartered).conclusion:so you should have some idea of how to play omaha hi/lo now. i'm not a fan of pre-flop starting hand lists for omaha hi/lo because there are literally thousands of combinations, and so you can't narrow the best hands into top 16 hands, etc. just remember some key things...- having an ace is important!- you want hands that aim to win the whole pot, preferably, otherwise you want hands that have a high chance of being the nut hand in either direction- your cards should work together. A239 is better than A28T, but A234 is even better. the more cards you have that work with eacher, the greater your chance at winning the pot is, exponentially.- being suited and connected greatly improve your hand.- always try to go for the nuts, and be cautious if you don't have it- always remember the possibility of being counterfeited- try to recognize situations where you might get quartered, and minimize your losses or maximize your profits depending on how many people are in the pot.i hope this guide helps. if you have any suggestions, corrections, criticisms, flames, praise, etc., feel free to post below. what i wrote is my style of playing, it might not work for some people, but i guarantee you will rake in much moola if you play like this.enjoy!aseempart 2 - http://www.fullconta...opic.php?t=3391
ty
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia"
c.s.

friends let friends play poker drunk

#34 noclue2

noclue2

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 29 July 2005 - 04:09 PM

premium high hands want less people in. AA9T for example should be played aggressively to thin the field.to akishore our omaha hi/lo specialist.....you talk about how you think you should raise with a AA910 in your hand, maybe if its suited but otherwise if you raise with a weak ace in a hi/low game you will most of the time put yourself in a unprofitable situation, you dont have a card low enough to qualify for a low, and if you are lucky you will flop a nut straight. whenever you have a 9 in your hand you should never be too exited about your hand because it is the worst possible card you can hold in a hi/lo game. i havent really read all of your intelligence on the game but in this section i would have to say that it is not profitable to raise a hand like that. all i play on the internet is hi/lo split games and if you ever raise your stakes will get consistently run over with hands that have no chance to scoop when a possible low flops. i think i better read the rest of your beginners guide to see what kind of information you are polluting these peoples minds with

#35 akishore

akishore

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 6,228 posts
  • Location:Cambridge (Boston), MA
  • Interests:Poker, jazz, programming, taekwondo, rock climbing, movies, etc.

Posted 29 July 2005 - 04:15 PM

noclue2, this guide has some mistakes in it. it's about half a year old, when i didn't know as much about the game as i do now. i definitely don't raise AA9T nowadays. i'll edit it sometime if i'm not lazy.aseem
After a long hiatus, my poker blog is back!

#36 ddudley

ddudley

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 806 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Jose, CA
  • Interests:Poker, Rock Climbing, Kickboxing, Golf, Investing
  • Favorite Poker Game:Limit Hold 'em

Posted 25 December 2005 - 07:21 PM

I was looking all over the place and couldn't find it. This should be moved to the Omaha Hi-Lo Forum and probably stickied.Hello?... Are there any mods in here?
-Dud

"Look, if you had one shot, one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted-In One moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?"




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users