14 replies to this topic

[LPY2005]

B&M MTT, $90+15 buy-in, 120 ppl, 1500 starting chipsBlinds at t75/t150 - a little over half the field left.UTG+1 t1850CO t5000 aprox.Button t3200Reads - UTG+1 is a donkey. The only reason he is still in is that he doubled through me by hitting a five outer on the river when all the money was already in. I was the tourney chip leader at the time. I wanted my chips back. He plays way to many hands and plays them poorly. Goes all in frequently with the worst of it but has been lucky so far.CO is a loose agressive player with skill. I've played him before at a final table. He plays some unconventional hands, but has great ability to know where he is at in respect to the rest of the table post flop. Very Gus Hanson like.UTG+1 bets t300, CO calls, from the button I look down at A K and raise t900, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.Flop is A 10 9 UTG+1 immediately pushes, CO thinks for a minute and then also pushes. I have TPTK and a nut flush draw and I was loving this flop until CO pushed. It takes me about 2 seconds to put UTG+1 on a poorly timed bluff and CO on A with a good kicker trying to isolate the donkey. I call.Comments?

[gobears]

I would have to call this also with TPTK and the nut flush draw which gives you more outs if you're behind.

[Drwnded]

My thought process would be the same as yours - donk could hold anything and very likely has nothing(lower flush draw?), and the CO wants to isolate him with A-x. You're probably ahead, and if not you certainly have outs. Consider the absolute worst case scenario: UTG holds QsJs giving him a straight flush draw, and the CO has the nuts, AA for trip aces - you're still 20% to win the hand if you call the all in. Chances are your opponents hold much worse hands than those; with the range of hands they could hold, most of which you have crushed, you certainly have the pot odds to call. Against two tight, solid players you'd probably fear that you're behind to trips or two pair, but you have to discount that possibility here given the situation.

[Swift_Psycho]

I dunno about your small pre-flop re-raise. I might have pushed right there pre-flop.As for your post-flop decision, in almost all cases, I'm calling.

[LPY2005]

Swift_Psycho said:

I dunno about your small pre-flop re-raise.  I might have pushed right there pre-flop.As for your post-flop decision, in almost all cases, I'm calling.

Since these guys were both trying to see many hands cheaply I thought my re-raise would take the pot right there. I thought about re-raising to put the donkey all-in, but if CO had a real hand and came over the top I'd have no choice but to call. Since my raise was half the donkeys stack I expected either a fold or push from him preflop.

[Nutcracker]

LPY2005 said:

I thought about re-raising to put the donkey all-in, but if CO had a real hand and came over the top I'd have no choice but to call

What hand do you think CO has that worries you? He called a minraise preflop, and you said he's LAG. Is it even possible for a player like this to let the blinds see the flop cheap if he has AA/KK? Doubtful.And that's a ridiculously easy call on the flop. Worst case, you're up against a set, which is rare, and you're still only about a 70/30 underdog, and you're getting about 3:1 on your money.

[LPY2005]

Nutcracker said:

LPY2005 said:

I thought about re-raising to put the donkey all-in, but if CO had a real hand and came over the top I'd have no choice but to call

What hand do you think CO has that worries you? He called a minraise preflop, and you said he's LAG. Is it even possible for a player like this to let the blinds see the flop cheap if he has AA/KK? Doubtful.And that's a ridiculously easy call on the flop. Worst case, you're up against a set, which is rare, and you're still only about a 70/30 underdog, and you're getting about 3:1 on your money.

True, I probably gave CO too much respect, but as I said, I thought my raise preflop would take it right there. I also didn't want to go broke on a drawing hand against a bigger stack. I was more concerned that my call was too hasty. From your responses it seems that it's an obvious call situation and didn't need a lot of thought. I was probably leading and if not I had lots of outs. Thanks, I'd make the call again. Not that it matters, but here's the results:UTG+1 had pocket 10's for the middle set and CO had 8 7 for the small straight flush draw. The turn was a rag and the river was 6 I have mixed emotions about the river card because it put me out, but at least the donkey didn't win, even though he played the hand correctly for a change. I really question the CO's call preflop and was surprised to see his cards. It's obvious he tried to isolate the donkey on the flop. It's too bad his hand eliminated 4 of my outs.In hind sight, a preflop push would have just crippled me instead of sending me to the rail, but ignoring what actually hit the board it's a coin flip anyway.

[Swift_Psycho]

LPY2005 said:

Swift_Psycho said:

I dunno about your small pre-flop re-raise. I might have pushed right there pre-flop.As for your post-flop decision, in almost all cases, I'm calling.

Since these guys were both trying to see many hands cheaply I thought my re-raise would take the pot right there.

Against 2 loose players? With such a small re-raise? Seriously? Even if they are looking for cheap flops, they aren't likely to fold if they've already put in 300.You probably still lose even if you push pre-flop, but I still like it better than your re-raise.

[Drwnded]

Swift_Psycho said:

LPY2005 said:

Swift_Psycho said:

I dunno about your small pre-flop re-raise. I might have pushed right there pre-flop.As for your post-flop decision, in almost all cases, I'm calling.

Since these guys were both trying to see many hands cheaply I thought my re-raise would take the pot right there.

Against 2 loose players? With such a small re-raise? Seriously? Even if they are looking for cheap flops, they aren't likely to fold if they've already put in 300.You probably still lose even if you push pre-flop, but I still like it better than your re-raise.

I like the raise preflop, and actually think pushing preflop is a suboptimal play. Your hand is good enough to want to get some value out of it. If you push, all you likely do is fold out everyone and collect the blinds + the limpers 600 chips they have in the pot already. I like charging them to play their marginal hands like you did by raising when you have a good hand, especially when you have position on the other players like you did.

[LPY2005]

Swift_Psycho said:

Against 2 loose players? With such a small re-raise? Seriously? Even if they are looking for cheap flops, they aren't likely to fold if they've already put in 300.You probably still lose even if you push pre-flop, but I still like it better than your re-raise.

Let me clarify, by loose I meant their starting hand requirements. UTG+1 was a moron, but CO likes to see a lot of cheap flops and try to outplay his opponent. Re-raising preflop 3x the initial raise had previously caused both to muck their cards on a couple of different hands. Besides, if they did call I still had A-K so am in good shape against most other holdings after the flop. I guess arguements could be made for a bigger re-raise, but I'm not in the habit of pushing everytime I look down at big slick.

[Swift_Psycho]

LPY2005 said:

I'm not in the habit of pushing everytime I look down at big slick.

Neither am I, but it's not like you have 100x the BB left. However, if your raise has pushed them off hands in the past, then it's not as bad as I first thought. I don't believe you mentioned earlier that making such a small re-raise pre-flop had previously worked.

[LPY2005]

Swift_Psycho said:

LPY2005 said:

I'm not in the habit of pushing everytime I look down at big slick.

Neither am I, but it's not like you have 100x the BB left. However, if your raise has pushed them off hands in the past, then it's not as bad as I first thought. I don't believe you mentioned earlier that making such a small re-raise pre-flop had previously worked.

You are right, I didn't mention it. Yes, there was a reason why I thought it would work. Still, I wasn't concerned when they called, especially when I looked at the flop. You still suggest a bigger re-raise preflop though?

[Nutcracker]

Quote

UTG+1 had pocket 10's for the middle set and CO had 8 Suit: Spade 7 Suit: Spade for the small straight flush draw.

That was pretty much the worst possible situation that could happen and is exceedingly rare. More often than not, you are 50%+ to beat both players here. Bad luck for you this time.As far as preflop, all-in isn't a real bad play, as UTG+1 is likely to call with many dominated hands if he's as donkish as you say, and it increases your chance to win with the bigstacked CO out of the hand. I'd probably move all in here myself, but I can certainly see an argument for a small raise like you did to get some value out of the hand. I might do the same if I had good reads on my opponents' postflop tendencies.

[Swift_Psycho]

LPY2005 said:

Swift_Psycho said:

LPY2005 said:

I'm not in the habit of pushing everytime I look down at big slick.

Neither am I, but it's not like you have 100x the BB left. However, if your raise has pushed them off hands in the past, then it's not as bad as I first thought. I don't believe you mentioned earlier that making such a small re-raise pre-flop had previously worked.

You are right, I didn't mention it. Yes, there was a reason why I thought it would work. Still, I wasn't concerned when they called, especially when I looked at the flop. You still suggest a bigger re-raise preflop though?

Frankly, this is why reads are so incredibly important when it comes to NL. I remember akishore posting something about this a while ago about how hard it is to give advice on NL hands without reads. I don't mind your small pre-flop re-raise as much seeing as it apparently was able to successfully win the pot in previous hands. The difference between you and me is that I'd never find that out in all likelihood because I'd never try such a small re-raise in the first place to aquire that information (I hope you were able to follow me there). Most of the time, I'm pushing here pre-flop though (as already mentioned). A larger raise pretty much completely commits me to the pot anyway, so pushing is the only option if I want to make a bigger raise.Even given your reads, I still think I prefer a pre-flop push here. The 825 in chips out there would make a fantastic addition to your stack if you could just pick up the pot right there, and getting in a heads-up all in pot against UTG+1 would be fine too. Even in the given situation, your only a little behind, and he's probably calling with a lot of hands you destroy as well, like A-J or K-Q.

[LPY2005]

Swift_Psycho said:

Frankly, this is why reads are so incredibly important when it comes to NL. I remember akishore posting something about this a while ago about how hard it is to give advice on NL hands without reads. I don't mind your small pre-flop re-raise as much seeing as it apparently was able to successfully win the pot in previous hands. The difference between you and me is that I'd never find that out in all likelihood because I'd never try such a small re-raise in the first place to aquire that information (I hope you were able to follow me there). Most of the time, I'm pushing here pre-flop though (as already mentioned). A larger raise pretty much completely commits me to the pot anyway, so pushing is the only option if I want to make a bigger raise.Even given your reads, I still think I prefer a pre-flop push here. The 825 in chips out there would make a fantastic addition to your stack if you could just pick up the pot right there, and getting in a heads-up all in pot against UTG+1 would be fine too. Even in the given situation, your only a little behind, and he's probably calling with a lot of hands you destroy as well, like A-J or K-Q.

Good point about the 825 in chips being a nice addition to my stack. Even though I though my raise would take down the pot right there I wasn't really concerned when they called, especially when I looked at the flop. As nutcracker suggested, it's just bad luck this time that the flop fit all of our holdings. Taking the pot down preflop may have cost me the 4450 additional chips I would have won if my hand completed, mind you in this case only with a 5 outer.I wasn't the first one that tried to take the pot with a small re-raise, but I noticed it working. They likely had worse holdings when it was working though. I find the re-raise required changes between online play and live play. I'm guessing because the pot and stack amounts aren't as easy to get a just looking at a number on a screen. Just an observation. Your experiences might differ.Thanks for the input all!