9 replies to this topic

[Inferno]

PokerStars Game #2816690799: Tournament #13507917, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2005/10/16 - 09:39:37 (ET)Table '13507917 13' Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 1: Sedd (1085 in chips) Seat 2: twg 1 (950 in chips) Seat 3: BlaCha (4630 in chips) Seat 4: Sundance5 (890 in chips) Seat 5: ADCCDS (7035 in chips) Seat 6: bigpaul456 (5145 in chips) Seat 7: aidafeek (3360 in chips) Seat 8: webbion (5375 in chips) Seat 9: KevinB75 (3500 in chips) bigpaul456: posts small blind 25aidafeek: posts big blind 50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Sedd [Ks Ad]webbion: folds KevinB75: calls 50Sedd: raises 100 to 150twg 1: folds BlaCha: raises 250 to 400Sundance5: folds ADCCDS: folds bigpaul456: calls 375aidafeek: folds KevinB75: folds Sedd:....... Now the action is to me, average stack is about 3K and I need some chips but a re-raise and a call after is a little scary too me. The original re-raiser doesnt have me that scared since he is a little bit loose with his raises and calls. Bigpaul on the other hand had been playin a lot tighter, but had enough chips to splash around at this point. My image will be fairly tight at this table, 45 minutes in and I had only be involved in about 3 or 4 pots so far and only had to show one down. So the question is, what would you do in this spot? Call, raise, or fold?

[Jadaki]

Fortune favors the boldAll in here, you likely isolate one of them with a weaker ace or underpair which you have a coinflip with. They are the big stacks, if you are playing tighter and they noticed it, they may not be willing to risk doubling up someone. If they do more power to you.

[Inferno]

I was hoping for a little more discussion on this before posting the results (not that they matter much) I'm guessing that it's because it is an easier decission than I think. In my opinion most people over value AK, but I think I under value them.PokerStars Game #2816690799: Tournament #13507917, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2005/10/16 - 09:39:37 (ET)Table '13507917 13' Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 1: Sedd (1085 in chips) Seat 2: twg 1 (950 in chips) Seat 3: BlaCha (4630 in chips) Seat 4: Sundance5 (890 in chips) Seat 5: ADCCDS (7035 in chips) Seat 6: bigpaul456 (5145 in chips) Seat 7: aidafeek (3360 in chips) Seat 8: webbion (5375 in chips) Seat 9: KevinB75 (3500 in chips) bigpaul456: posts small blind 25aidafeek: posts big blind 50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Sedd [Ks Ad]webbion: folds KevinB75: calls 50Sedd: raises 100 to 150twg 1: folds BlaCha: raises 250 to 400Sundance5: folds ADCCDS: folds bigpaul456: calls 375aidafeek: folds KevinB75: folds Sedd: raises 685 to 1085 and is all-inBlaCha: calls 685bigpaul456: calls 685*** FLOP *** [Kd 5h Jc]bigpaul456: checks BlaCha: checks *** TURN *** [Kd 5h Jc] [6c]bigpaul456: checks BlaCha: checks *** RIVER *** [Kd 5h Jc 6c] [3c]bigpaul456: checks BlaCha: checks *** SHOW DOWN ***bigpaul456: shows [Qh 8h] (high card King)Sedd: shows [Ks Ad] (a pair of Kings)BlaCha: mucks hand Sedd collected 3355 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 3355 | Rake 0 Board [Kd 5h Jc 6c 3c]Seat 1: Sedd showed [Ks Ad] and won (3355) with a pair of KingsSeat 2: twg 1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: BlaCha mucked [Ts Tc]Seat 4: Sundance5 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 5: ADCCDS (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: bigpaul456 (small blind) showed [Qh 8h] and lost with high card KingSeat 7: aidafeek (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 8: webbion folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: KevinB75 folded before Flop Still not really sure it was the right move, but it certainly did work out in my favor. Oh and do I even have to mention how wrong my reads were on these players? lol This could be another problem of mine to add to the list of reasons I'm not finishing tournaments that I feel I should be :roll:

[loogie]

It was the correct move. With your chip stack and the blinds where they are, you should definitely push here.

[copernicus]

Before reading the results, I fold. There is a good chance that not only are you behind a pair, but also that at least one of your AK outs is duplicated. Your out of position as well.Your raise was a little bit small, which may have allowed some of the rest of the preflop play to happen. If I want to limit the field I like to raise 3BB plus 1BB for each limper plus (2BB in EP, 1BB in MP), so I would go to 300 here. (Alternatively if you want to play it as a drawing hand, limp and fold to any significant raise).After reading the results: You didnt tell us they were both idiots, well at least BigPaul! I still like a bigger raise preflop. You may not get the Blacha money in, but it looks like BigPaul is coming along for the ride, and you might bet more aggressively heads up.

[Drwnded]

copernicus said:

Before reading the results, I fold. There is a good chance that not only are you behind a pair, but also that at least one of your AK outs is duplicated. Your out of position as well.Your raise was a little bit small, which may have allowed some of the rest of the preflop play to happen. If I want to limit the field I like to raise 3BB plus 1BB for each limper plus (2BB in EP, 1BB in MP), so I would go to 300 here. (Alternatively if you want to play it as a drawing hand, limp and fold to any significant raise).

If he pushes, his position then becomes irrelevant, which is actually an argument for moving all in.However, I agree - as much as I'd want to triple up here, the way you described them, I would've believed preflop that one or both of my opponents had me in deep trouble. I give a lot of respect to preflop reraisers. It's close though, and I don't fault you too much for playing it this way. It's not unusual for one of your opponents to hold AK as well in this situation(there goes a third of your outs) and the other to have a pair, which is not a situation where I'd want to put all my money in. Your chip situation is not totally hopeless if you fold.

[loogie]

Sorry Drwnded and Copernicus, but I disagree with you here. Look at the relative chip stacks. He's getting pushed around by the big stacks. This is a perfect opportunity to take a stand and try to double or triple up. Go all in and see all 5 cards.

[copernicus]

loogie said:

Sorry Drwnded and Copernicus, but I disagree with you here. Look at the relative chip stacks. He's getting pushed around by the big stacks. This is a perfect opportunity to take a stand and try to double or triple up. Go all in and see all 5 cards.

He's getting pushed around by two donkeys who may even think that its good big stack play, but its awful!Blacha's raise comes with the biggest stack behind him and a raise in front of him...thats no time to play games with a median stack at the table and probably overall in the tourney. Bigpaul, who we have solid evidence of being an idiot probably does think calling a limper and two raises is good big stack play...I hope you dont!I still think a more aggressive bet is called for. Id rather see an all-in than a $100 raise. All the $100 is likely to do is make the flop much more difficult to play when rags hit assuming you get a few callers instead of two donkish raises.The buyin isnt listed, but I would hope this is a very low limit tourney based on the two clowns who are raising. As such my usual assumption of good players in thinking about a hand can go out the window and that makes the all in a lot more viable as the hand actually played out, and probably preferable. Youre going to need to get lucky a few times to wade your way through a field of donkey chips and this is as good as any.

[Inferno]

copernicus said:

loogie said:

Sorry Drwnded and Copernicus, but I disagree with you here. Look at the relative chip stacks. He's getting pushed around by the big stacks. This is a perfect opportunity to take a stand and try to double or triple up. Go all in and see all 5 cards.

He's getting pushed around by two donkeys who may even think that its good big stack play, but its awful!Blacha's raise comes with the biggest stack behind him and a raise in front of him...thats no time to play games with a median stack at the table and probably overall in the tourney. Bigpaul, who we have solid evidence of being an idiot probably does think calling a limper and two raises is good big stack play...I hope you dont!I still think a more aggressive bet is called for. Id rather see an all-in than a $100 raise. All the $100 is likely to do is make the flop much more difficult to play when rags hit assuming you get a few callers instead of two donkish raises.The buyin isnt listed, but I would hope this is a very low limit tourney based on the two clowns who are raising. As such my usual assumption of good players in thinking about a hand can go out the window and that makes the all in a lot more viable as the hand actually played out, and probably preferable. Youre going to need to get lucky a few times to wade your way through a field of donkey chips and this is as good as any.

This was an FPP wpt satellite, but even so I was still very surprized to see the hands they were holding. Like I said, Bigpaul seemed to be playing somewhat tight up to this point but i guess I should be happy he called. I like the bigger preflop bet, and even thought about it but I have a hard time following through with that thought on AK. Maybe this tourny is not one I should be scrutinizing plays from, although the way I handle the hand should still remain similar should it not? I'm still a little torn on what I should have done. Folding seems more like a good option after the reraise and call now, although I'm still not totally unhappy with my play. Any criticism (hopefully constructive :-) ) is welcome. I need to remove my donk moves out of my playbook somehow

[copernicus]

ahhhh FPP that explains it ....and changes my opinion. Youre going to get a lot of people rolling dice trying to build a stack or leave early. Now I have no problem at all with the push.