standard?

[mrdannyg 274]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is BB with [Ah], [Js]. 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.Flop: (8.50 SB) [Jc], [7s], [8c] (4 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.Turn: (7.25 BB) [5d] (3 players)Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.River: (9.25 BB) [9s] (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.Final Pot: 11.25 BBSeems pretty standard. UTG+1 is LPP, MP1 is TAP, with 12% PFR, button is LAP.Daniel

[the7yearplan 0]

Looks standard to me. I like the check raise on the flop, you are head enough to trap the table for 2 bets. I would put UTG+1 on the straight and/or flush draw with JTo or JTc so your not going to get him to fold. You checked when the scare card came down and just called behind which looks like the best play with your read on him.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

I like bettin flop rather than cring. Sometimes PFR will raise to help protect your hand. If the PFR had come from button or CO it would be best to cr, but now you have trapped entire field. PFR may not raise flop, but thats better than risking trapping the field for 3 bets on the flop.

[goose 0]

looks good.

[avsfan 0]

Bet the flop. Imo.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Bet the flop. Imo.

I Think planning a check/raise is a lot better in this spot.

[avsfan 0]

Calling and check raising the turn could be fun.

[akishore 0]

lead the flop, hope preflop raiser raises. coordinated flop, vulnerable hand in this spot. big pot, protect.alternately, check/call and lead safe turns.clark (bet/fold) the river. this is a great river to bluff an overpair, plus you get more value betting here from hands worse than top pair.you need a solid read to check/call this river. (villian needs to be aggressive and a frequent bluffer.)aseem

[JaysonWeber 0]

I thought the flop could have been a lot worse. Either way, I guess it depends on what you think pre-flop raiser is going to do, because it's going to be a pretty big pot and you want to give yourself some chances to win it.

[avsfan 0]

I thought the flop could have been a lot worse.  Either way, I guess it depends on what you think pre-flop raiser is going to do, because it's going to be a pretty big pot and you want to give yourself some chances to win it.

Damn hash! I thought AJ had the lead preflop. Your flop check raise here is the tits! I honestly could c/r or bet that flop though. It all depends on my horoscope that day.

[screech 0]

I'm going for the c/r on that flop all day.We have a very vulnerable hand in a large pot. If we bet, we have no gaurantee that MP1 will raise on this dangerous looking board. We then give most weak draws the proper odds to call.I go for a check/raise, and I'm not too disappointed if it gets checked through.Anyone think we should just call UTG's flop bet?

[Briguy 0]

I'll 3-bet that preflop, usually, depending on the stats of MP1 and on the calling standards of BB and UTG. I really prefer to isolate with AJo.Clarkmeister the river. It's the best way to get value from worse J's (although this looks like JT or J9 after the river bet).

[mrdannyg 274]

interesting river strategy. can someone elaborate on this clarkmeister bet/fold strategy, and the situations it is best used in?Thanks,Daniel

[screech 0]

I'll 3-bet that preflop, usually, depending on the stats of MP1 and on the calling standards of BB and UTG.  I really prefer to isolate with AJo.

How can you isolate when button has already called?Plus, he opened from MP1. Even if you could isolate, you'd usually be OOP with a worse hand.

[hotbacon 0]

interesting river strategy.  can someone elaborate on this clarkmeister bet/fold strategy, and the situations it is best used in?Thanks,Daniel

When you're first to act and have a strong hand HU, but the board is scary so your opponent may not bet, and if he does, he probably has you beat with whatever the scary hand would be. So in a situation where you have a set or two pair, are OOP, and the river brings a scare card (let's say a 4th suited card), you should often bet/fold because if you check, your opponent will check behind with top pair, bottom two, etc. but bet flushes. But if you bet/fold it, he now will call with the hands you beat and raise with hands that beat you.

[mrdannyg 274]

interesting river strategy.  can someone elaborate on this clarkmeister bet/fold strategy, and the situations it is best used in?Thanks,Daniel

When you're first to act and have a strong hand HU, but the board is scary so your opponent may not bet, and if he does, he probably has you beat with whatever the scary hand would be. So in a situation where you have a set or two pair, are OOP, and the river brings a scare card (let's say a 4th suited card), you should often bet/fold because if you check, your opponent will check behind with top pair, bottom two, etc. but bet flushes. But if you bet/fold it, he now will call with the hands you beat and raise with hands that beat you.

i really like this line, thanks for enlightening me. most of my opponents are either passive or TA, and if they're TA probably won't have the straight flush they're representing and i can suck out an extra bet on their bluff, or if they're passive i can fold to the raise.now that i think about it though, i like it less. while its definitely a better EV play for that one bet to bet out since i'm getting called with a lot of worse hands, and i am almost never beating a raise i don't think this takes pot size into account enough. if i'm going to bet/fold, i could just as easily use that bet to call his bet and see a showdown. i'll definitely use this in small pots or against very passive opponents, but otherwise i might be hesitant to use this.thanks for the tips though.Daniel

[Briguy 0]

I'll 3-bet that preflop, usually, depending on the stats of MP1 and on the calling standards of BB and UTG. I really prefer to isolate with AJo.

How can you isolate when button has already called?Plus, he opened from MP1. Even if you could isolate, you'd usually be OOP with a worse hand.

It's easy when I misread the hand history.

[Briguy 0]

The Clarkmeister is -EV, but it's not as -EV as check-calling against passive opponents, because of the times that a worse hand that may have called your bet just checks through (like QJ, KJ). The Clarkmeister will not work on super aggressive opponents who will bluff-raise on the river, and will likely bluff when checked to anyway...for those types of players, check-call is preferred.The way UTG played this hand, I'm guessing that he's passive. But it is only one hand.On a related note: Is TPTK a strong enough hand to Clarkmeister with?

[akishore 0]

nonononononononono.you DON'T clark with a set or two pair. those hands have showdown value and are very strong! folding them to a potential bluff raise in a big pot is a disaster.you DO clark with medium-strong hands like TOP PAIR.and screech, you're not protecting your hand by checkraising this flop when the bettor is to your direct left. and yes, having it checked through would be a disaster on this draw-heavy board.aseem

[Briguy 0]

nonononononononono.you DON'T clark with a set or two pair. those hands have showdown value and are very strong! folding them to a potential bluff raise in a big pot is a disaster.you DO clark with medium-strong hands like TOP PAIR.and screech, you're not protecting your hand by checkraising this flop when the bettor is to your direct left. and yes, having it checked through would be a disaster on this draw-heavy board.aseem

Thanks, Aseem. It's been a while since I read the original 2+2 thread.Edited to add: I'm working on 6 hours of sleep over 3 days. That's my only excuse for my recent misreads/misadvice. All previous misreads and bad advice are because ISAP. Note to self: Don't start 150ish MTTs at 10:00 p.m. if you intend to make the final table and have to get up at 6:30 a.m.

[rog 0]

Aseem...why do you think leading protects your hand better than checking? Isn't the goal of protecting to face opponents with as severe pot odds as you can to make them fold draws (or call unprofitably)? If you bet, ou're giving 9.5:1 + implied to UTG+1, and he calls with as little as 4 outs. The raise is expected from MP1, so you're bloating the pot and going to the turn 3-handed. We know the raise came from UTG+1, but I think it's results-based thinking to believe leading protects better on this flop. I strongly favor checking here.Second, what does raising the flop do? We check to allow MP1 to bet, so we can raise forcing UTG+1 out. When UTG+1 leads and MP1 calls, that plan is blown to bits. If we raise, we're offering 12.5:1 immediate. We know nobody folds. We end up with 14.5sb in the pot after the flop instead of 11.5. On the turn 11.5 in the pot lets us lead giving 6.25:1 immediate. with 14.5, we offer 8.25:1, allowing many more draws to call against us. Even 4 outs might call against us if they expect an overcall, plus 1 on the river. Everyone is saying we need to protect the hand, and I agree... with this hand, that's just what we should do. Check the flop. Call or raise depending on who bets, and then lead this turn. Am I wrong?

[rog 0]

and screech, you're not protecting your hand by checkraising this flop when the bettor is to your direct left. and yes, having it checked through would be a disaster on this draw-heavy board.aseem

Re-read the preflop action. The raiser was on your right, or am I on crack?

[akishore 0]

i'm sorry! i misread the action.yeah, checking here is better then.probability (pfr checks, button bets) > probability (UTG bets).aseem

[avsfan 0]

i'm sorry! i misread the action.yeah, checking here is better then.probability (pfr checks, button bets)  >  probability (UTG bets).aseem

Me too. I wish ppl would only highlight the person who we are commenting on.