i don't know when to fold (lhe)

[econ_tim 0]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: econ_tim is MP3 with 2:diamond:, 2:club:. UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, econ_tim calls, CO calls, BB calls.Flop: (17.50 SB) 3:heart:, 6:spade:, 4:diamond: (5 players)BB checks, UTG+1 bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, econ_tim calls.Turn: (12.75 BB) 6:diamond: (5 players)BB checks, UTG+1 bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, econ_tim calls.River: (20.75 BB) J:spade: (5 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, econ_tim checks, CO bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, econ_tim folds.Final Pot: 23.75 BB-Drawing Donkey

[Demiparadigm 0]

fold preflop to the raise. Every other call was marginally okay.

[Actuary 3]

anay reeads?I fold the first time u can against normal UTG+1 raisesThen I might fold the cap bet too.

[econ_tim 0]

anay reeads?

my main read was that CO was pretty loose preflop and called down postflophe's the reason i cold-called here

[screech 0]

I think UTG+1 and CO have high pp's. (maybe 88, maybe AA)In which case you are likely drawing to about 7 outs. I think you played everything well after preflop.

[Smasharoo 0]

Flop call bad.good luck.

[Sysvr4 0]

I fold this PF. No reason to suspect this pot will be sufficiently multi-way to make this a profitable call (unless you knew the folks behind you to be cold-calling stations).Fold the flop. Fold the turn. Hey, good fold on the river :)Jeff

[akishore 0]

haven't read replies--fold the turn!yes the pot is big, but it is no longer big enough to justify chasing either two set outs or four VERY DIRTY gutshot outs.see what i mean?aseem

[akishore 0]

Flop call bad.good luck.

nah, i don't think it is getting ~ 18-to-1.while you don't know whether you're drawing live to a set or a sucker straight, you're most likely drawing live to ONE of them.just the fact that you have a bunch of people acting behind you does suck, but i think in a big pot, calling one (and then obviously calling one more back to you) is marginally profitable enough to justify a call.it's the turn that should definitely be folded, though.aseem

[akishore 0]

In which case you are likely drawing to about 7 outs.

wha wha wha wha whaaaat??how in the world do you get the number 7??six is the *maximum* -- two set outs and four gutshot outs.that doesn't even discount any for them sucking so badly, mostly the gutshot outs.i think giving him four outs is pretty generous here. i'd guess two to three.aseem

[dimseven 0]

I fold the first time u can against normal UTG+1 raises

[screech 0]

wha wha wha wha whaaaat?? how in the world do you get the number 7?? six is the *maximum* -- two set outs and four gutshot outs.

I'll explain it all in my next book "How to misread boards and overestimate outs"I thought Tim had a OESD - by using my method, fish can happily chase unprofitable draws guilt free. :-) I fold this turn.

[Actuary 3]

funny...some fold preflopsome fold flopsome fold turn

[econ_tim 0]

what kind of hands does anyone have that contain a 7?i said the table was loose, not maniacali can think of 77 and, um, ...so I'd estimate my turn outs around 5

[kaisersoze12 0]

I'd fold pre-flop. three-betting is even better than calling cold with dueces. I'd drop this though and wait for a better opportunity pre-flop.

[Actuary 3]

I'd fold pre-flop. three-betting is even better than calling cold with dueces. I'd drop this though and wait for a better opportunity pre-flop.

I like folding better tooBut 3-bet >>> Calling ??Aren't we playing this for set value, when we play?

[screech 0]

what kind of hands does anyone have that contain a 7?i said the table was loose, not maniacali can think of 77 and, um, ...so I'd estimate my turn outs around 5

What happened to the other opponent? I thought it said 5 players, but I only count 4...Yeah, I'd say 5 outs is about right.I don't mind the call as much now with only 3 opponents, 2 of which likely have pp's >77.

[kaisersoze12 0]

I'd fold pre-flop. three-betting is even better than calling cold with dueces. I'd drop this though and wait for a better opportunity pre-flop.

I like folding better tooBut 3-bet >>> Calling ??Aren't we playing this for set value, when we play?

We three bet to take away the pot w/out showdown, or you fold if you don't think you can.If this goes to showdown w/out improving we are dead. If we three-bet we need to believe we can take it down on a flop or turn bet - or hit our lucky 1/7.5 shot.I am not that confident of that though, so I am folding pre-flop.Calling is worse because we cannot (or much tougher) take away the pot if both players miss. We throw in a minimum 2 SB, possibly 4. Our pot commitment is 1/3 about with a 1/7.5 shot to at best hit bottom set. Three-bet to take away or muck.

[econ_tim 0]

PREFLOP PLAY IS NOT ABOUT POT ODDS.

[speedz99 145]

PREFLOP PLAY IS NOT ABOUT POT ODDS.

There's no need to yell.For the record, I fold preflop, call the flop same as you, and fold turn.

[akishore 0]

PREFLOP PLAY IS NOT ABOUT POT ODDS.

lol.i feel your frustration timmy.but... but...... tim... you need to take the lead in this hand so that you can win without showdown!! you know, make the other guys fold, increase your fold equity!!aseem

[akishore 0]

what kind of hands does anyone have that contain a 7?i said the table was loose, not maniacali can think of 77 and, um, ...so I'd estimate my turn outs around 5

for the record, i ripped tim apart in person telling him that the BB being in this hand and cold-calling all day means you're definitely NOT drawing live to all of your outs.for the record, BB had a 7 in his hand.for the record, i rock. :-) aseem

[econ_tim 0]

but... but...... tim... you need to take the lead in this hand so that you can win without showdown!! you know, make the other guys fold, increase your fold equity!!

I'll take the low-percentage/high-payoff option. BTW, I read that article. Pretty good stuff. Insurance bets are for suckers.

[akishore 0]

but... but...... tim... you need to take the lead in this hand so that you can win without showdown!! you know, make the other guys fold, increase your fold equity!!

I'll take the low-percentage/high-payoff option. BTW, I read that article. Pretty good stuff. Insurance bets are for suckers.

i thought it was hilarious how it took me maybe 15 paragraphs to get to any actual poker discussion. aseem

[kaisersoze12 0]

PREFLOP PLAY IS NOT ABOUT POT ODDS.

Go ahead and call then. If you played this out on Turbo Hold'em over a few thousand hands I expect you would find calling the worst play. I will run this simulation tonight on Turbo and let you know.