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an out-of-position no limit hand in detail


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#21 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:01 PM

jayistheman said:

aseem, before i honestly give my diagnosis here, what do you think of my above line?
i think checkraising is nice somewhere, but i'm not sure whether flop is best or turn is best.you say turn, screech says flop.flop is cheaper, but it might be unreliable (he might reraise with worse hands, might fold hands that are way behind mine, might fold his bluffs, and he might also reraise better hands--he's obviously not folding any better hand).turnis more expensive, but it's probably more reliable, and more importantly, i've gotten enough value out of his bluffs that i don't mind if he folds his bluffs at this point.it's close. not sure which street is better to checkraise on.aseem
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#22 No_Neck

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:02 PM

i say flop

#23 TJ_Eckleburg

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:02 PM

All those are true statements.This is where I'm coming from though.Someone once told me he liked "mixing up his play" for deceptive purposes by limping with aces sometimes and raising with aces sometimes.For me, the best way to do that sort of thing is to just raise more with suspect hands in late position, not to AVOID raising in profitable situations.That's all.
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#24 Actuary

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:04 PM

Are you gaining any visibility?I think that ranks up there 2nd to position.But, then again, I write short posts

#25 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:05 PM

TJ_Eckleburg said:

The biggest reason is raising means you'll win more showing down one pair than you would have by limping.
i don't really care much about the number of *times* i win.i feel that i win more *money* by limping queens and playing them differently than i would by raising queens (under the gun).

TJ_Eckleburg said:

With an unraised pot you lose a lot in being able to make other people fold.
i don't mind this...?

TJ_Eckleburg said:

Big difference between an 8-handed limped pot and a 5-way pot in which you raised.  By raising, you at least have the information that your opponents have hands strong enough (in their perceptions) to call a raise.
eh.this just means i play my hand differently than i would have if i had limped.again, my point is that i win more money playing queens differently in limping than i do in raising.

TJ_Eckleburg said:

I'm just saying it would suck to lose to junk two pair, and you need to get the blinds out of there.  And, with a +EV situation like having QQ preflop, you need to raise for value, equity, AND to protect your hand.
i will clearly *not* take my dry pair of queens to showdown that often if i limp, and if i do, they will be big pots where i have a high *visible* chance of winning, not big pots where i raised preflop and am somewhat obligated to put in a good amount of money on most flops, etc....i am playing them with a different purpose in mind.and no, it's not to hit a set necessarily. it *is* to play certain flops aggressively while other ones passively. it is to maybe isolate a player who raises after me preflop (via limp-reraising), maybe even push.i'm not sure if i'm coming across correctly.summary: i feel i make more money limping queens and thus playing them differently postflop, then i do by raising them and playing them "textbook" postflop.aseem
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#26 jayistheman

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:05 PM

well..checkraising the flop could be seen as a semibluff... and if i have AK or AA in this spot, and i think someone is semibluffing me....... well ill have to put the hammer down. i don't know about him though. most players wait til the turn to wake up with strength, so it just might scare him into submission.either way... i think you may suffer from FPS to a degree. probably due to the fact that you play those out of hand live games up there im smart kid land. sometimes you could make an easier buck by playing a more straight up style, but to each his own. you promote short stach strategy out of a disdain for giant decisions (we all hate them), but i feel that your deep stacked NL strat may create many more than necessary.

#27 KDawgCometh

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:06 PM

this is a joke right, cause that has to be the answer here. THERE IS NO FUCKING RATIONAL REASON TO NOT RAISE QQ PF. If you try to give some sort of reason, I might just have to find a way to put you in the nut house, seriously. this is one of the fishiest lines that I have ever seen. at no point do you raise with one of the best hands you can get, are you dumb, or just stupid. If you aren't raising this PF, then you need to CR this post flop. THis hand is a raise regardless of stack size, and regardless of position in NL with no one in, or no raises in ahead of you. good job playing this hand about as poorly as possible
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#28 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:07 PM

Actuary said:

Are you gaining any visibility?I think that ranks up there 2nd to position.But, then again, I write short posts
against this player, i gain more visibility with postflop betting than i do with preflop betting.aseem
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#29 jayistheman

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:07 PM

kdawg... do we need a joint??chill dude. :-)

#30 screech

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:07 PM

Quote

if you mean a checkraise on the flop, i think i like this a lot.
I meant the flop.The earlier you find out where you are, the cheaper it will be if you're behind. If he's bluffing, you'll win that extra bet he puts in on the turn, but your risk reward ratio has gone down.

#31 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:08 PM

KDawgCometh said:

this is a joke right, cause that has to be the answer here. THERE IS NO censored RATIONAL REASON TO NOT RAISE QQ PF. If you try to give some sort of reason, I might just have to find a way to put you in the nut house, seriously.  this is one of the fishiest lines that I have ever seen. at no point do you raise with one of the best hands you can get, are you dumb, or just stupid. If you aren't raising this PF, then you need to CR this post flop. THis hand is a raise regardless of stack size, and regardless of position in NL with no one in, or no raises in ahead of you. good job playing this hand about as poorly as possible
lol.thanks.aseem
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#32 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:09 PM

Actuary said:

Love the WA/WB showing up again.
by the way, you'll notice i never used this in the absolute sense. i said the hand has become *more* wa/wb.every hand has elements of wa/wb, but sometimes those elements aren't prominent enough to justify certain actions.the board pairing did make this hand more wa/wb.aseem
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#33 KDawgCometh

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:10 PM

jayistheman said:

kdawg... do we need a joint??chill dude.  :-)
I'm completely calm, this is one of the most retarded hands I've ever seen, and for someone who tries to profess themselves as a good poker player, it just boggles me to no end
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#34 jayistheman

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:11 PM

i disagree with the way he played it as well...but i explained that above.

#35 Actuary

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:11 PM

please tell me he had 89 :club: Yuo might have gained visibility by betting post flop, I"ll agree with that. :roll:

#36 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:11 PM

screech said:

Quote

if you mean a checkraise on the flop, i think i like this a lot.
I meant the flop.The earlier you find out where you are, the cheaper it will be if you're behind. If he's bluffing, you'll win that extra bet he puts in on the turn, but your risk reward ratio has gone down.
so you're implying that i fold to a reraise?that's one of my reasons for not being sure if the flop is best--this information is reliable much less often than it is on the turn.it's cheaper to checkraise the flop, agreed, but it's also a lot more "predictable" in a sense. this means a lot of players will "call my bluff" so to speak, and--especially this specific player with his profile--will reraise hands that i am ahead of.aseem
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#37 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:13 PM

Actuary said:

please tell me he had 89  :club:  Yuo might have gained visibility by betting post flop, I"ll agree with that. :roll:
no, he didn't.and actuary, i have admitted i misplayed this hand postflop. i only said that i believe visibility is better gained through postflop betting than preflop betting, which means i should have checkraised somewhere postflop but not necessarily raised preflop.that's the point, yet i didn't checkraise and i didn't gain visibility. that's where my mistake is. why the sarcasm?aseem
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#38 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:14 PM

KDawgCometh said:

jayistheman said:

kdawg... do we need a joint??chill dude.  :-)
I'm completely calm, this is one of the most retarded hands I've ever seen, and for someone who tries to profess themselves as a good poker player, it just boggles me to no end
keith,this is not meant as a belittling or condescending question in the least, but i am curious how much experience you have in no limit hold 'em, specifically with medium or deep stacks.aseem
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#39 TJ_Eckleburg

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:14 PM

I need to chew on your reasons for limping... but I think IF you're going to limp, you need to check-raise at some point with the intention of folding if he calls OR plays back at you.
Always bet like you've got a pair.

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#40 Actuary

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 04:15 PM

KDawgCometh said:

I'm completely calm, this is one of the most retarded hands I've ever seen, and for someone who tries to profess themselves as a good poker player, it just boggles me to no end
It's the defense of it that boggles me even moreCall me crazy..but if you play it this way Preflop... bet hard any non-Ace flop. And take your chances.What if flop came 2,5,9 and he makes the same bet..you going to call him down fearing 55 ?This hand makes me think you are out of your league.I still reserve some hope that this is a mirage.ps: Edit: ok..I know..you are not defending the post flop play.Why start the thread then?oh.. and the sarcasm comes from hating my job.And YSAP :wink:




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