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an out-of-position no limit hand in detail


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#1 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:23 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxakishore ($194)MP1 ($155.35)Preflop: akishore is UTG with Q:heart:, Q:diamond:. CO posts a blind of $2. akishore calls $2, 1 fold, akishore calls $6.limping here is standard for me. i know a lot of people raise, but... to each his own. i'll explain in detail if people ask.MP1 is 56% vp$ip and 31% pfr after 16 hands--pretty loose/aggressive. in other words, he plays 56% of all his hands and raises preflop 31% of the time. compare this to a regular TAG who plays about 20% of his hands and raises preflop about 10% of the time. i think he was most likely a donkey and was not position-aware.thoughts of limp/re-raising run through my head, and i consider it, but i decide that since i'm not strong enough to push in, raising will simply force me to play a big pot out of position against an aggressive player, with a very vulnerable hand.i of course don't want that, so i decide to simply call and re-evaluate on the flop.Flop: ($21) K:club:, 7:heart:, 6:diamond: (2 players)akishore checks, MP1 bets $18, akishore calls $18.(for the limit players, postflop AF is essentially useless in no limit, so i'm not bothering to include it, nor did i bother to really care about it.)i feel that he makes this bet with a wide range of hands, maybe close to 100% of the hands he raises preflop except maybe K-K. so, i decide folding is wrong.again, the question becomes, get aggressive now or wait?i decide checkraising here isn't too smart. my stack isn't deep enough to checkraise a good amount and still have room to play the turn and river. this means that if i checkraise, it'll be either too small (he'll call with practically every hand, and i get nothing accomplished) or it committs too much a part of my stack (i lose his bluffs and lose my stack to his K-x and whatnot).i again decide to call and reevaluate the turn.Turn: ($57) 6:heart: (2 players)akishore checks, MP1 bets $20, akishore calls $20.i consider betting out here, but i see no purpose in it. a check protects my hand just as much as a bet because it's virtually guaranteed that villian will bet anyway if checked to.the $20 bet is really surprising. i feel that it is either really strong or fairly weak. i see no purpose in raising still, mostly for the reasons listed on the flop, and also because the board pairing made this hand significantly more wa/wb, except for the flush draw being introduced.i decide to just call. since he is letting me in cheap, i don't mind entering cheap.River: ($97) 5:heart: (2 players)akishore checks, ...MP1 has $120 remaining. i cover him by about $40.i am unsure what bets i call and what bets i fold to. i have no read as to whether he routinely fires third barrels or river bets are usually only for value.since the flush came, and since i am still beaten by K-x and 6-x, i will probably fold to most decent sized bets. i might call a small one. ironically, i might be making the biggest mistake here, since the small bets might be the value ones while the big ones the bluffs.i am lost.overall, i feel i misplayed this hand postflop somewhere, but i'm not sure where.i might have been either too passive or too stubborn. i value position to an insane degree in this game, especially online where i have much less information available to me during any given hand. this specifically (bad position) is the reason i was so passive throughout the hand.i am wondering if limit has made me too passive in my no limit game. i am seeing more and more hands where i'm either losing value or losing solid bluffing opportunities because of my passive play, and i'm wondering if this is becoming a small leak.any thoughts on any street?aseem
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#2 allinbluff35

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:30 PM

i stopped reading after you didn't raise preflop and you think you're going to justify not raising it by typing a 1500 word essay on it, I'm now going to just stop reading anymore posts you make on this website.
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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:31 PM

allinbluff35 said:

i stopped reading after you didn't raise preflop and you think you're going to justify not raising it by typing a 1500 word essay on it, I'm now going to just stop reading anymore posts you make on this website.
what he said

#4 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:32 PM

allinbluff35 said:

i stopped reading after you didn't raise preflop and you think you're going to justify not raising it by typing a 1500 word essay on it, I'm now going to just stop reading anymore posts you make on this website.
lol.bah, i knew i'd get flamed for this.if my stack was shallower, i'd raise.aseem
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#5 TJ_Eckleburg

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:35 PM

I like the way you illustrate your thinking on each street. It helps me formulate my own opinions.Bottom line... the problem with passive play is it gives you far less information to work with.Limping UTG with queens is generally a bad idea. The perfect by the book way to play it is raise preflop, and bet/fold the flop, and I can see from your read why this was unappealing to you. BUT, if you raise preflop and ostensibly check, he might fear a check-raise, which changes the dynamics of the hand.What is HE putting YOU on? An early position limp, probably a small pocket pair or a trap-hand ace, maybe. Either way, he's got every reason to take this hand balls-to-the-wall with any two hole cards heads up against you in position, and checking and making "brilliant calls" is a bad idea.Make the other guy brake. You have to raise this preflop, I think.I for one would be interested to hear the 1500 word essay on why you don't want to raise preflop.Be open-minded, guys. This is about learning.
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#6 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:39 PM

so, i think with my 100 bb'ish stack, i'm in the grey area about raising.let's put it this way. if my stack is 200 bb or more, a genuinely deep stack, i don't raise. honestly.if my stack is shallower, 50 bb for example, this is an easy raise.mostly it just has to do with the huge overlays on the turn and river when you play deep-stack poker.since position is by FAR the biggest and most important holy grail of factors when it comes to deep stacks, i'd much rather sacrifice a *tiny* amount of money that comes from pushing a preflop equity edge than to play a big pot out of position with semi-deep stacks.i mean, what's the harm in limping, letting the pot be multiway, and check/folding a bad flop? what's the harm in limping, someone raising behind you, and you being able to now reraise if the villian's stack is smaller?i mean, i genuinely passionately intensely hate playing big pots out of position. i can't emphasize it enough, i hate it. i play sooo tight out of position, but QQ is obviously too good to fold.aseem
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#7 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:42 PM

in case i wasn't clear about overlays...a bad preflop decision costs you maybe 3 - 5 bb's.a pot sized river decision costs you maybe 50 - 100 bb's.position *vastly* increases the value of all your hands, on all streets.this means that playing a hand out of position can lead to an expensive 50 - 100 bb mistake on the river.i'd much rather lose a little preflop value worth a fraction of a few bb's than force myself to make a bad river decision worth a fraction of 50 bb's.make sense?aseem
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#8 jayistheman

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:44 PM

if you don't want to play a large pot, out of position, with QQ, why did you keep calling?if you decide to meekly play this hand, then you must be prepared to lay it down without ever properly defining your offonent's holdings.

#9 No_Neck

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:45 PM

I think not raising preflop screwed you up for the rest of the hand though. If you raise preflop I think it might make your decisions easier

#10 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:46 PM

jayistheman said:

if you don't want to play a large pot, out of position, with QQ, why did you keep calling?if you decide to meekly play this hand, then you must be prepared to lay it down without ever properly defining your offonent's holdings.
against some opponents, i would check/fold this flop.i had a lot of trouble letting myself do that against this specific opponent.i agree that i might have been too stubborn. where do you fold?aseem
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#11 TJ_Eckleburg

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:46 PM

With JJ, I could understand, but there's a big difference with QQ, I think.Ed Miller said somewhere that I read (and can't cite) that there is a big calculable dropoff in EV between QQ and JJ. Basically, he said that with QQ-AA, your EV INCREASES as players enter the pot (as variance does too) but not nearly so much with JJ on down. Your reason for being less likely to raise as your stack deepens is quite baffling me. I can see that with a shortstack, it's move-in and double up or bust... but with a deeper stack, you WANT to be playing big pots with the 3rd best possible starting hand.That being said, you still need to be able to get away from QQ on bad flops, even if you raise. But my point is, it's worth it to your bankroll to raise and win monsters with QQ at the cost of raising and missing and folding than for limping and allowing a multiway unraised pot out of position.
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#12 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:50 PM

TJ, you contradicted yourself.you say with QQ, not so much with JJ, my equity increases as more players enter the pot.then why is allowing a multiway pot by limping a bad thing??aseem
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#13 jayistheman

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:50 PM

akishore said:

jayistheman said:

if you don't want to play a large pot, out of position, with QQ, why did you keep calling?if you decide to meekly play this hand, then you must be prepared to lay it down without ever properly defining your offonent's holdings.
against some opponents, i would check/fold this flop.i had a lot of trouble letting myself do that against this specific opponent.i agree that i might have been too stubborn. where do you fold?aseem
well.. its hard to figure out what i'd do here, as i would raise it up pre flop and lead the flop..but ill give it a shot.im folding the turn....ORim raising the turn, as low as the min, and as much as 60... a small feeler raise. you don't want him to assume you are on a draw and keep trying to shut you out with AQ, JJ, TT, etc. at the least, this will flush out any strong holdings, and buy a cheap showdown against weaker hands.... it will also get value out of him if you are ahead.it just sucks that its gonna cost you this much to define the hand, when a pre flop investment of 6 or 8 could vastly change the situation.

#14 screech

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:52 PM

Aseem,I don't play many NL cash games, so take my advice with a grain of salt.I used to play a lot of tourney's, and I found raising for info early is a lot better than the call/call line. The bets get so much bigger on each street in NL, that calling when you are unsure of where you stand can get very costly.Since you plan to call most turn cards anyway, why not just raise to an amount that you think you'll end up calling on the turn anyway? This decreases the chance that you'll get bluffed off the hand, and you still lose the same amount.

#15 TJ_Eckleburg

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:53 PM

akishore said:

TJ, you contradicted yourself.you say with QQ, not so much with JJ, my equity increases as more players enter the pot.then why is allowing a multiway pot by limping a bad thing??aseem
The biggest reason is raising means you'll win more showing down one pair than you would have by limping.With an unraised pot you lose a lot in being able to make other people fold.Big difference between an 8-handed limped pot and a 5-way pot in which you raised. By raising, you at least have the information that your opponents have hands strong enough (in their perceptions) to call a raise.I'm just saying it would suck to lose to junk two pair, and you need to get the blinds out of there. And, with a +EV situation like having QQ preflop, you need to raise for value, equity, AND to protect your hand.
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#16 Actuary

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:54 PM

i of course don't want that, so i decide to simply call and re-evaluate on the flop. Flop: ($21) K, 7, 6 (2 players) akishore checks, MP1 bets $18, akishore calls $18. (for the limit players, postflop AF is essentially useless in no limit, so i'm not bothering to include it, nor did i bother to really care about it.) i feel that he makes this bet with a wide range of hands, maybe close to 100% of the hands he raises preflop except maybe K-K. so, i decide folding is wrong. again, the question becomes, get aggressive now or wait? i decide checkraising here isn't too smart. my stack isn't deep enough to checkraise a good amount and still have room to play the turn and river. this means that if i checkraise, it'll be either too small (he'll call with practically every hand, and i get nothing accomplished) or it committs too much a part of my stack (i lose his bluffs and lose my stack to his K-x and whatnot). i again decide to call and reevaluate the turn. good idea to not play big-stack poker OOP with QQ.what did your evaluations tell you?If I sound sarcastic, good.I really get tired of people thinking they have great skills in NL..using phrases like "re-evaluate" on the turn. You are behind 145 hands on the flop and ahead of the rest. What else you want to evaluate? What could have been done that woulda given you all the info you needed?A ragged board with no Ace and you just call the flop?Love the WA/WB showing up again.I don't pretend to know what I'm doing in NL.You might try it.I gotta get home and play somne poker, work sux.

#17 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:54 PM

TJ_Eckleburg said:

Your reason for being less likely to raise as your stack deepens is quite baffling me.  I can see that with a shortstack, it's move-in and double up or bust... but with a deeper stack, you WANT to be playing big pots with the 3rd best possible starting hand.
no, i disagree pretty firmly.my biggest profits in deep stack no limit games are from speculative hands like 4 :) 4 :) , 7 :) 5 :club: , 4 :D 5 :D , 9 :) 8 :D , 2 :) 3 :) , and ALL of them are when i'm in position.how often am i taking a dry pocket aces to the river in a big pot with deep stacks? not often...how often am i taking a small flush draw or a double-gutted straight draw in position, allowing myself a life-saving free card on the turn or allowing myself a highly profitable semi-bluffing opportunity that i wouldn't have in position? a lot...really, for me in deep stack games, it's pretty standard for me to limp AA under the gun in a loose and aggressive game. if someone raises behind me, i can reraise hard (sometimes all-in), or i can play a pot where i don't mind check/folding at all on coordinated and bad flops where i have practically no real way to visibly and easily improve, and i have a very deceptive hand if i hit a set.i have often said my no limit play is highly unorthodox, but i really have deep-rooted reasons for all my plays. and really, i believe most of these reasons are solid poker theory.i'd soooo much rather play 7 :) 2 :) on the button than A :) A :) under the gun in a deep-stack game.and i can honestly say that i believe the former will show more profit for me than the latter, over a million hands.aseem
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#18 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:57 PM

actuary,in case i wasn't clear, i have said multiple times that there was at least one error in my postflop play.it is preflop where i do not believe i misplayed.aseem
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#19 jayistheman

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:57 PM

aseem, before i honestly give my diagnosis here, what do you think of my above line?

#20 akishore

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:57 PM

screech said:

Since you plan to call most turn cards anyway, why not just raise to an amount that you think you'll end up calling on the turn anyway?  This decreases the chance that you'll get bluffed off the hand, and you still lose the same amount.
if you mean a checkraise on the flop, i think i like this a lot.still chewing it up, though.aseem
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