8 replies to this topic

[runawayjim19]

I recently came across a situation where it may have been correct to lay down aces pre-flot, and I thought I’d share. I was playing in a LIMIT Round-Up tourney at one of the local card rooms here in the Bay Area. In a Round-Up tourney every player is given a button, which is worth 1 buy-in, in this case $50. If you go all-in, your button goes into the pot and if you are eliminated your button goes to the winner of the pot. If you’ve busted out some players and you’ve got a few buttons when you go all-in, all of your buttons go too. The tourney is played down to the final 6 or 7 and then play stops. In essence it’s like a supper-satellite, with 4 or 5 tables. You count of all of your buttons and are paid for each button you’ve collected, not your chip position.So here is the situation: I was at the final table, with 8 players left, the tourney was playing down the final 7, so one more bust out and we stop and get paid. I had 10 buttons or $500 worth, and about $7000 in chips (which was about 5th). There were two players who were extremely short stacked, and would be almost forced all-in by the blinds. Blinds were $1000 - $500. I was in the BB, when I find pocket aces. The action is folded around to the C/O seat who raises, button folds and the LB raises to three beats. The C/O player was a bit loose, I had been playing with him for the most of the tourney, but I had no read on the LB. It looked like he had me slightly covered in chips, so I couldn’t bust him and win his buttons. What do you do? Fold, knowing that if you stay out of the action you will most likely cache. Call, wait to see the flop before committing my whole stack and tournament. Raise, it’s the best hand. I decided to raise, making it four bets and $4000 of my $7000 stack. The C/O player folded and the LB called. The flop comes down AK3 rainbow. The LB bets out and I raise, he re-raises putting me all in, I call. He turns over pocket kings for a set of kings. I know set of aces can’t be beat when the C/O player tells me he had the other king.Now I’m the chip leader, but on the next hand the player who I just beat goes out and looses his $300 in buttons to someone else. I finish with 10 buttons for $500, which I had before the aces.One of the most interesting situations I’ve ever experienced in a tournament.

[bigkg]

i honestly don't see what the conflict is here, how could you fold.

[holman3rd]

bigkg said:

i honestly don't see what the conflict is here, how could you fold.

Round Up, wow, what will they think of next? Honestly, I would never play in one of these. It encourages the type of play that can get you into trouble with "Traditional" tournaments. You're only trying to knock other people out. Knocking people out in traditional tourneys (sorry, never thought I'd have to describe them, but this round up thing threw a wrench in everything) should not be your goal. You only have to knock one person out, and that's the guy you face heads up at the final table. Instead, in a "round up" you've got to spend so much time looking for targets on your radar screen.As for Aces...I can see your point, but I really don't think I can ever see myself mucking aces preflop.

[runawayjim19]

The confilt is that there was no money reward for winning the pot vs. that player since I couldn't knock it him out. But I was risking the money that I would make by outlasting one more player. If you think of it like a Super sattalite I think it may have been correct to lay them down in this situation.

[holman3rd]

runawayjim19 said:

The confilt is that there was no money reward for winning the pot vs. that player since I couldn't knock it him out.   But I was risking the money that I would make by outlasting one more player.  If you think of it like a Super sattalite I think it may have been correct to lay them down in this situation.

I actually think i'm going to agree with you here since it sound like 2 other players were on life support. You have enough for almost 5 more orbits, which will more than likely knock one of the small stacks out and stop the tourney.Sorry, I wasn't quite understanding the situation before. Why tangle with a bigger stack when all you have to do is fold into cashing? Sure, you could get greedy and go for more buttons, but that's a slippery slope.Obviously, this is a very unique situation in a very unique tournament. Other tournaments I can think of are those like the Party Poker IV Cruise semis. They pay one package per 60 entries. For example, if 1,200 people enter, 20 packages are paid. If the tourney is down to 21 players, laying down Aces might apply since spots 1-20 all pay the same.Am I on the same page now?

[randomization]

One piece of information you left out: is it possible for you to bust the CO, and how many buttons does he have? Unless you've got a reasonable chance to bust out the cutoff, you should probably just fold here because of the bizarre structure that the tournament has. The only other way that you gain by playing this hand is if you bust the LB then get a hand worth tangling with a big-stack whom you now have covered in the next few hands. Otherwise, you just run something like a 20% chance of getting busted with this hand, or being short-stacked after a fold for nothing. There's a lot of risk with no reward.

[Wilderness]

That is an interesting situation and may very well warrent folding the aces. You are the only one facing a risk on the hand. Sure, the other guy was then extremely short-stacked and went out, but you couldn't gain any of his buttons from your aces. Its hard to muck aces, but that's probably the right play, which is why I really don't like tournaments like that one, because it encourages people to make plays that they wouldn't make in a regular tournament.

[CodyHartman]

I think that he was correct to play. He could lay it down post flop if no ce came and he put the guy on 3 kings.Since he won the pot he made that guy a low stack thus giving the tourney a chance to end earlier. Who knows, the next hand he he is the button and you are the SB he may pick up another hand and so do you, then you have the chance to bust him based on what happened the previous hand. Had you laid them down pre flop then you stregthen his chip stack and have NO chance for his 300 bux in tokens.Just my thought.

[holman3rd]

CodyHartman said:

I think that he was correct to play. He could lay it down post flop if no ce came and he put the guy on 3 kings.Since he won the pot he made that guy a low stack thus giving the tourney a chance to end earlier. Who knows, the next hand he he is the button and you are the SB he may pick up another hand and so do you, then you have the chance to bust him based on what happened the previous hand. Had you laid them down pre flop then you stregthen his chip stack and have NO chance for his 300 bux in tokens.Just my thought.

Not a horrible play, but kind of risky as the stop-and-go would leave him with just $4,000 if he had to fold on the flop. As for going after more buttons, I think the risk/reward ratio is just too unfavorable.