13 replies to this topic

[Herr Baader]

Hey All,Longtime lurker, firstime poster with two questions I've never seen addressed (apologies if they have been...) I've mostly been playing tourneys these days, which is why I'm posting here...1. What's your general "rule" for completing a small blind in an unraised pot? I know that Harrington says to always at least call the BB in a HU situation, that folding in this case is -EV, but what about a full table? Or with 7, 4, 3 players left? Does it make a difference if there are many/few/no limpers coming in before you? Even with, say, 92o, do the odds make it worth a call? (This is pretty much assuming early on when the blinds are still pretty small in comparison to your chipstack - though I'd be curious if anyone had a rule for bet/chipstack ratio when it comes to this kind of decision).2. This is a situation I was in recently, last 3 players of a $10 SnG, and I was unsure if I did the right thing. Don't have the hand history, but it was something like this, and represents a fairly common situation:Hero $7500V1 $1500V2 $6000Can't remember what the blinds are, let's say on the low side -- $200-$400. V1 is the button and is all in.V2 is SB and calls. Hero (BB) is looking at AKo...Do you call or raise? If you call, do you call and bet the flop or check it down to (hopefully) eliminate V1? Or do you raise (presumably all-in) to try and either a) force out V2 and hopefully get those extra chips, or B) have him call and take it down.I went all-in, more on impulse than anything else, and my AK held up against A1o and K10, but my impulsive moves are seldom my best ones and it got me to thinking that maybe I should just have called and checked it down. (Of course this is preuming that V2 is playing along and not going to try betting at the flop...)Thanks in advance for your comments. I've improved my game a lot from reading the strat sections of this site, even if my play is not yet always +EV.

[copernicus]

1. I always complete an unraised small blind unless im shortstacked and the blinds are a significant chunk of it. Then I will limit my calls to Ax, two paints or connected suiters. Youre getting a minimum of 3/1 odds and unless you dont know how to get away from a small piece of the flop that isnt likely to be a winner, its worth thte call.2. Call and cooperate. The other big stack isnt calling your all in unless he has a pair and theres no reason to be in a coin flip with him before the small stack gets knocked out. He was cursing you for the raise, and showing AK wouldnt have stopped the evil thoughts

[gobears]

Welcome to the forum!From the SB, I'll fold junk like 92o. With hands like that, you're really hoping to hit two pair or trips and even then, you have to worry about being counterfeited or being outkicked. I will complete with non-suited connectors (with one or two gaps), any small PP, any two suited cards - the more players the better as I'm trying to hit the flop and then have someone who can't let go of TP come along for the ride.On the 2nd point - I would have pushed also. With a non-premium hand, I would just call and run the cooperation play but AKo is too good of a starting hand to just call.Only one result is truly bad and not very likely with you holding AKo - small stack wins the main pot and middle stack beats you out of the side pot. All the other results benefit you in some way.

[gobears]

copernicus said:

1. I always complete an unraised small blind unless im shortstacked and the blinds are a significant chunk of it. Then I will limit my calls to Ax, two paints or connected suiters. Youre getting a minimum of 3/1 odds and unless you dont know how to get away from a small piece of the flop that isnt likely to be a winner, its worth thte call.2. Call and cooperate. The other big stack isnt calling your all in unless he has a pair and theres no reason to be in a coin flip with him before the small stack gets knocked out. He was cursing you for the raise, and showing AK wouldnt have stopped the evil thoughts

Hey! We differ! I don't think that my mind can handle this :-)

[GWCGWC]

Here's my $.02.1. When you are in the small blind in a NL tourney, and the blinds are still small, I complete the bet from the SB every time. If I have an exceptionally weak hand like 92os, then the more players that limp in, the better. I am looking for a flop of 222 or 999, even a flop of 926 may be ok, but these types of flops can be dangerous. If it is later in a tourney with 3 of 4 limpers, I still complete the SB with less than stellar hands. I'm hoping the flop hits me very hard and I can gain some chips. The more limpers, the better.2. I go all in every time in this position. I want to be in a heads up race with the short stack. My re-raise may make the SB lay his hand down.

[copernicus]

gobears said:

On the 2nd point - I would have pushed also. With a non-premium hand, I would just call and run the cooperation play but AKo is too good of a starting hand to just call.Only one result is truly bad and not very likely with you holding AKo - small stack wins the main pot and middle stack beats you out of the side pot. All the other results benefit you in some way.

This probably depends on the prize structure as to whether your happy with giving the other big stack an overwhelming chip lead.Another way to look at it is ignore the small stack. If you are HU against the other big stack do you go all in pre-flop with AK with relatively equal stacks and with position?I dont unless I think the other player is significantly better than me. I would rather put in a standard raise (which by that point should tell him nothing, because i often do it with weaker hands), see the flop and outplay him from there. The all in is almost certainly going to either just steal the blinds (or in this case force my potential "partner" out) or find itself on the wrong side of a race. The only calling hand to an allin that you dominate is probably AQ because BB is thinking "why isnt he cooperating..he must have a monster". Scooping up the extra chips doesnt change your HU status with the BB enough to justify giving up the extra power against the small stack.IF the blinds were larger then I would like the allin play a lot more because the steal would be more worthwhile.

[Herr Baader]

Thanks for your .02, guys. I've respected your posts in the past and it's interesting to see that here they are so diametrically opposed. Copernicus, can I ask what SnG tourney levels you play? I ask bc at the lower levels I play (I only recently went from $5 to $10), when it gets down to HU, people will call an all in with Ax all the time (as the guy did in my example).

[copernicus]

Herr Baader said:

Thanks for your .02, guys. I've respected your posts in the past and it's interesting to see that here they are so diametrically opposed. Copernicus, can I ask what SnG tourney levels you play? I ask bc at the lower levels I play (I only recently went from $5 to $10), when it gets down to HU, people will call an all in with Ax all the time (as the guy did in my example).

$50 and $100 mostly. $30 if im trying something new.Youll get calls with Ax from smaller stacks that think you might be bullying and are up against the blinds, but not with more equal stacks..usually anyway.

[gobears]

copernicus said:

Another way to look at it is ignore the small stack. If you are HU against the other big stack do you go all in pre-flop with AK with relatively equal stacks and with position?I dont unless I think the other player is significantly better than me. I would rather put in a standard raise (which by that point should tell him nothing, because i often do it with weaker hands), see the flop and outplay him from there. The all in is almost certainly going to either just steal the blinds (or in this case force my potential "partner" out) or find itself on the wrong side of a race. The only calling hand to an allin that you dominate is probably AQ because BB is thinking "why isnt he cooperating..he must have a monster". Scooping up the extra chips doesnt change your HU status with the BB enough to justify giving up the extra power against the small stack.IF the blinds were larger then I would like the allin play a lot more because the steal would be more worthwhile.

In a HU situation, a raise by the SB to 1,500 would be 1/4 of his stack. Any standard reraise that I make that he calls would pot commit him. I either call or push in this situation. Only thing that I don't like about calling is that if the flop misses me (2/3 chance), then I'm open to a stop n go where he's pushing on the flop. However, our stack sizes would still be close, so folding would be ok there.With the button all-in, if I push and SB folds then either:Small Stack wins, I have 6K, both SB and Button have 4.5K. I'm still ahead in chips.I win, I have 10.5K, SB has 4.5K - pretty good situation for me.My impression is that the blinds are low enough where both our effective M's are below 10 so that SB would call my all-in with Ax, K with a good kicker; not just AQ. I agree that stack size relative to the blinds is a major factor. If the stacks were deeper, then I run the cooperation play.or Maybe I just like to take the easy way out with AKo, push and take away all those tough post-flop decisions. :-)

[copernicus]

gobears said:

In a HU situation, a raise by the SB to 1,500 would be 1/4 of his stack. Any standard reraise that I make that he calls would pot commit him.

No I was talking about how you would play the big stack HU, as if the small stack werent there

[gobears]

copernicus said:

gobears said:

In a HU situation, a raise by the SB to 1,500 would be 1/4 of his stack. Any standard reraise that I make that he calls would pot commit him.

No I was talking about how you would play the big stack HU, as if the small stack werent there

Ok I get it - then I agree that in a HU situation, my play would be to raise the SB and not to push since the SB is either limping or raising an amount lower than 1,500. Pushing upfront would in all likelihood cause him to fold almost everything that we dominate.Instead, the standard raise (which tells him nothing) draws him into the pot, hopefully with a holding that we dominate.I think that in the OP's example though, the SB has already put in 1,500 chips and the pot has the dead money from the button so he's more likely to call our push with a weaker holding that we dominate.

[copernicus]

gobears said:

copernicus said:

gobears said:

In a HU situation, a raise by the SB to 1,500 would be 1/4 of his stack. Any standard reraise that I make that he calls would pot commit him.

No I was talking about how you would play the big stack HU, as if the small stack werent there

Ok I get it - then I agree that in a HU situation, my play would be to raise the SB and not to push since the SB is either limping or raising an amount lower than 1,500. Pushing upfront would in all likelihood cause him to fold almost everything that we dominate.Instead, the standard raise (which tells him nothing) draws him into the pot, hopefully with a holding that we dominate.I think that in the OP's example though, the SB has already put in 1,500 chips and the pot has the dead money from the button so he's more likely to call our push with a weaker holding that we dominate.

cool..then we agree up to the last paragraph. I just dont think he's calling with a weaker hand because of the dead money. Our unwillingness to cooperate would be too big a tip off to risk first place on for the extra 25% in odds the 1500 gives imo.In fact I was in a very similar situation the other night as the "other big stack", and was annoyed when I thought the all-in was from another donk who didnt understand cooperation plays (after running into several of them in my last 3 final tables). He went all in, I folded, and he had KK. So, maybe I'm projecting my thought process on others, and they wouldnt read it as such a strong hand...we are all shaped by our experiences!

[Rocketwadster]

lately, I have found myself going against Harrington from the SB with complete junk hands (ie. 8 3 offsuit), no matter the nuber of limpers. HU is totally different, as I like to raise it up if I am going to play, but that is dependant on the number of chips I have.For the scenario you mentioned, I would have also pushed it in there with those chip stacks. 8)

[LPY2005]

1. SB action depends on your opponent in the BB. If he's tight/weak raise with everything, it only needs to be 2xBB. If he calls he probably has you beat. Against tight agressive/players you need to mix it up a little, because he might let you steal one or two, but will play back at you if you abuse it. Against loose/aggressive players call or raise only with good cards and expect that your calls are going to get raised. He has position on you and will recognize that if you only call you are doing so because you can see a cheap flop.2. I think your raise was fine. AK is too strong just to call. If my hand plays well multi-way I just normally call and co-operate. You are okay to raise after the flop if it really helps you. Otherwise just co-operate and try to eliminate the all-in. I never bluff the other caller off the pot. If I'm betting it's because I want the caller to put in more chips.