18 replies to this topic

[Binbs]

** Game ID 516363414 starting - 2005-09-28 00:13:15** Axxess [Hold 'em] (1.00|2.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money- epsilonx sitting in seat 1 with $103.01- ytlwings sitting in seat 2 with $41.53- Binbs sitting in seat 4 with $378.09- Airsweden sitting in seat 5 with $85.00 [Dealer]- covenant69 sitting in seat 6 with $257.10covenant69 posted the small blind - $1.00epsilonx posted the big blind - $2.00** Dealing card to Binbs: 4 , 4 ytlwings foldedBinbs called - $2.00Airsweden called - $2.00covenant69 foldedepsilonx checked** Dealing the flop: 7 , 3 , 4 epsilonx bet - $8.00Binbs called - $8.00Airsweden called - $8.00** Dealing the turn: 8 epsilonx checkedBinbs bet - $20.00Airsweden called - $20.00epsilonx went all-in - $95.01Binbs foldedAirsweden went all-in - $55.00Good or bad fold?

[CoolHandLaw]

I fold. Which doesn't necessarily mean it's a good fold.

[joeltebbutt]

I would fold as well

[TJ_Eckleburg]

The correct answer is "raise the flop."There are some slightly valid reasons for not raising the flop, but that's vastly outweighed by the fact that a LOT of cards come off that can kill your hand, and you have a good chance of a) being ahead now, and b) having the best hand at the river (equity).A raise is clearly in order. The hand plays a lot differently if you raise the flop.

[CoolHandLaw]

ok so being the nl virgin I am, please explain how this plays different if you raise the flop?Lets assume epsilonx calls your flop raise. You take control of the turn. its the 8 then what do you do?

[TJ_Eckleburg]

If he re-raises the flop, the easy read is either a) flopped baby flush, or b) As-Xh where X is top pair. That's the way it happens almost all the time at low limits online... with some the occassional two-pair/straight with a redraw/higher set thrown in there much more rarely. Then you can decide based on odds (you need about 2:1 to get an EV neutral call IF you think you're behind, which isn't always the case), or make the call based on the read. The point is, there's a LOT that Villain bets here that we're WAY ahead of, and if we're not, then we're drawing WAY live to beat him and double up.If we have a set, then we have 10 outs to pair the board and win with a boat (6 unseen cards to pair the flop + 1 more for quad 4's, and if we brick the turn then we pick up 3 more outs to pair that other card on the river to equal 10 outs). Remember, these are outs TO BEAT A FLUSH, which we may not necessarily be behind to.If you raise the flop, you make the pot bigger so it's a) easier to make a play the turn, and b) to increase fold equity (the more you raise, and the more streets you have raised increase your fold equity, i.e. opponents' desire to fold, generally speaking).Let's not forget you have the best hand here more times than you don't. The raise is also for value (putting money in the pot with the best hand), AND it keeps a lot of 1-spade hands from getting a cheap draw at 9 cards that instantly beat you (though you have the killer redraw).By calling, you don't know what your opponent is betting, you don't know where your at, and the turn is small enough to fold for a monster bet. You don't want to be in the habit of having pots be small enough by the turn to fold for a big bet.Don't forget we're way ahead of a lot of hands that bet here, but they may have 1-card spade draws. If that's the case, then raising the flop and pricing them out on the turn is EXACTLY the way to go.Villain bets 8 at 8, I'm raising to 24. The guy behind you then HAS to fold (or get really creative) and then the guy who bet has a decision to make. If he calls and checks the turn to me, I'm overbetting to the tune of 75. If he calls with a 1-card spade, he's calling horribly unprofitably, and if he check-pushes with a better hand, we can still call with our redraw.Do you see how in no limit a) suckouts and bad play CAN be rewarded, but b) you STILL have to bet with the purpose of IF you're opponents are going to call, they have to draw as unprofitably as possible? Sets are absolute gold mines in no limit.

[jayistheman]

TJ_Eckleburg said:

The correct answer is "raise the flop."There are some slightly valid reasons for not raising the flop, but that's vastly outweighed by the fact that a LOT of cards come off that can kill your hand, and you have a good chance of a) being ahead now, and B) having the best hand at the river (equity).A raise is clearly in order. The hand plays a lot differently if you raise the flop.

ive played with him wayyyy more than he realizes....and he doesnt raise. :-)

[CobaltBlue]

TJ, on a 3-flush board, I think that it's sometimes okay to wait for a safe turn to blow away the flush draws.With two opponents on the turn, I think it's okay to bail. To be honest, it looks like BB might have the straight or a baby flush. Button looks to be on the flush draw.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

CobaltBlue said:

TJ, on a 3-flush board, I think that it's sometimes okay to wait for a safe turn to blow away the flush draws.With two opponents on the turn, I think it's okay to bail. To be honest, it looks like BB might have the straight or a baby flush. Button looks to be on the flush draw.

If you raise you can find out for sure, clean up outs, add value if you're ahead, and price yourself in to call if you're behind.I like waiting for the turn if the pot's bigger. I think in this situation raising's better.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

Quote

ive played with him wayyyy more than he realizes.... and he doesnt raise.

Me? I raise a lot.

[jayistheman]

TJ_Eckleburg said:

Quote

ive played with him wayyyy more than he realizes.... and he doesnt raise.

Me? I raise a lot.

how does it look like im talking about you?i was obviously talkin about binbs, and it was in jest... i forget what my notes on him say, but something in my mind says hes passive. who knows.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

The whole "quoting me" part threw me off.Good times though. If Philly makes it to the NFC Championship game y'all will have to come down to Atlanta to see it. I'll swap you some sweet tea and peach cobbler for a philly cheesesteak.Kidding, kidding... it'll be a fun year though.

[jayistheman]

TJ_Eckleburg said:

The whole "quoting me" part threw me off.Good times though. If Philly makes it to the NFC Championship game y'all will have to come down to Atlanta to see it. I'll swap you some sweet tea and peach cobbler for a philly cheesesteak.Kidding, kidding... it'll be a fun year though.

i dunno about coming to atlanta....i dont know about the cobbler either.but a pecan pie gets you a cheesesteak any day.

[Binbs]

You play on Prima jay?Whats your name there?

[Binbs]

And btw.BEing passive isnt the smae thing as being deceptive

[jayistheman]

i used to be spite_call.not any more.nuff said... loland i know about the passive issue.. .i was jopking

[WonderfulSplash]

Binbs said:

And btw.BEing passive isnt the smae thing as being deceptive

Yes it is. <sw> (hope it was obvious)

[Binbs]

jayistheman said:

i used to be spite_call.not any more.nuff said... loland i know about the passive issue.. .i was jopking

What limits do you play on Prima jay?

[jayistheman]

i did play anything from NL 50 to NL 600 for a while..the last few times i played it was just NL 100, but i havent been on there in a month or so, cuz i had to spend my roll on college expenses.