7 replies to this topic

[KidKanuck]

I am trying to get a handle on how valuable hands like 56s, 45s, 46s, etc. are in limit. Particularly lower limits.I am looking for any insight and reasoning behind it. thanks a ton.KK

[justblaze]

very valuable in multiway pots. they figure to have good equity. as well, the hands these kinds of holdings aim to make are flushes and straights, which are the types of hands that will take down multiway pots.

[Eclypse]

KidKanuck said:

I am trying to get a handle on how valuable hands like 56s, 45s, 46s, etc. are in limit. Particularly lower limits.I am looking for any insight and reasoning behind it. thanks a ton.KK

They can be worth playing in games where there isn’t much raising before the flop and with lots of loose, passive players. You also want a game where the players are generally pretty passive on the flop too because aggressive players will bet and raise your weak draws and force you to fold.With connectors as small as you’re talking about, you are going to have to limit yourself to late position with several limpers in front of you.If all of the above criteria are met, give them a shot.

[wrto4556]

I aggree with what is said above. They are vulnerable, and any time you sit down and have to pay 2 bets to see a flop too often, they lose alot of their value. And when you flop the straight draw you want, and it's 3 bet when it gets to you, there's simply no point in playing them. Under the right criteria, and played correctly, they can be very valuable...under the wrong criteria, and played incorrectly...they can be a big leak.

[StarlightCoast]

wrto4556 said:

I aggree with what is said above. They are vulnerable, and any time you sit down and have to pay 2 bets to see a flop too often, they lose alot of their value. And when you flop the straight draw you want, and it's 3 bet when it gets to you, there's simply no point in playing them. Under the right criteria, and played correctly, they can be very valuable...under the wrong criteria, and played incorrectly...they can be a big leak.

I'm a bit confused about this so perhaps someone can help. The most important thing with suited connectors is to get pot odds as I see it. Ok I am dealt 67s in MP1 we'll say in a $1/$2 limit game. UTG raises to $2 I call 1 other calls and big blind calls. We have four people in the hand to see the flop and $8 in that pot. The flop is dealt. UTG bets $1 and there is $9 in the pot and I have 9-1 odds to call and see the turn card. I call and the other 2 fold. Turn card dealt. UTG bets $2 giving the pot $10 and me 5-1 to call it so I do and finally river card is dealt.Now in the above example naturally if the flop does not give me a 4 card flush draw or open ended straight draw then I say bye bye, but as far as value goes with a suited connector isn't a raise what is really needed to get those pot odds you so desperately need to chase these things? In fact would not a raise by someone with a suited connector go a long way to getting those pot odds?

[TheIceman05]

StarlightCoast said:

wrto4556 said:

I aggree with what is said above. They are vulnerable, and any time you sit down and have to pay 2 bets to see a flop too often, they lose alot of their value. And when you flop the straight draw you want, and it's 3 bet when it gets to you, there's simply no point in playing them. Under the right criteria, and played correctly, they can be very valuable...under the wrong criteria, and played incorrectly...they can be a big leak.

I'm a bit confused about this so perhaps someone can help. The most important thing with suited connectors is to get pot odds as I see it. Ok I am dealt 67s in MP1 we'll say in a $1/$2 limit game. UTG raises to $2 I call 1 other calls and big blind calls. We have four people in the hand to see the flop and $8 in that pot. The flop is dealt. UTG bets $1 and there is $9 in the pot and I have 9-1 odds to call and see the turn card. I call and the other 2 fold. Turn card dealt. UTG bets $2 giving the pot $10 and me 5-1 to call it so I do and finally river card is dealt.Now in the above example naturally if the flop does not give me a 4 card flush draw or open ended straight draw then I say bye bye, but as far as value goes with a suited connector isn't a raise what is really needed to get those pot odds you so desperately need to chase these things? In fact would not a raise by someone with a suited connector go a long way to getting those pot odds?

Yeah, but you're still calling two bets cold with a hand that needs a LOT of help.Think of it this way: Your odds of flopping a flush DRAW are a little worse than 11-1 against. If you add to that your odds at catching a straight draw, a set, two pair, or a draw of some kind after a checked flop, our hand's still a serious dawg to about any holding, right? Especially one that's in there raising. So, if there's .5 (sb) + 1(bb) +2 (UTG Raise) +2 (random call) ($5.5) in the pot when it gets to you, and you're looking at a 2 dollar call... well, you're getting TERRIBLE ODDS here. You gotta think about these odds, as well as the odds on the flop-on. What if nobody limps behind you and the blinds fold? You just threw 2 dollars away for a chance at a relatively small pot, getting absolutely no implied odds if you DO hit your hand. Plus, you're against an aggressive early position raiser who is likely going to charge you to see any draw. If someone UTG raises, you're on the button, and there are 5 callers already, then a limp is a little more appropriate. You don't want to be the first second, or even third person calling a raise with a hand that needs that much help to win. If you're the fourth, and you're reasonably certain there won't be a 3 bet, it's a little more reasonable. Personally, I'm not a big fan of small suited connectors. I'm throwing away hands like 45s in late position, unless the game is PERFECT. I'd better get monster action to the river if I flop a draw, and I'd better be able to see a 6 person flop for a single bet. OR- IF the game is very strong, I'll make the occassional raise out of position with hands like 78s, but only for deception purposes.Sorry that's so long and stupid.Ice

[wrto4556]

Actually, you took the words right out of my mouth...except mine were a little shorter."You're paying too much to see the flop."

[jonnyz]

StarlightCoast said:

wrto4556 said:

I aggree with what is said above. They are vulnerable, and any time you sit down and have to pay 2 bets to see a flop too often, they lose alot of their value. And when you flop the straight draw you want, and it's 3 bet when it gets to you, there's simply no point in playing them. Under the right criteria, and played correctly, they can be very valuable...under the wrong criteria, and played incorrectly...they can be a big leak.

I'm a bit confused about this so perhaps someone can help. The most important thing with suited connectors is to get pot odds as I see it. Ok I am dealt 67s in MP1 we'll say in a $1/$2 limit game. UTG raises to $2 I call 1 other calls and big blind calls. We have four people in the hand to see the flop and $8 in that pot. The flop is dealt. UTG bets $1 and there is $9 in the pot and I have 9-1 odds to call and see the turn card. I call and the other 2 fold. Turn card dealt. UTG bets $2 giving the pot $10 and me 5-1 to call it so I do and finally river card is dealt.Now in the above example naturally if the flop does not give me a 4 card flush draw or open ended straight draw then I say bye bye, but as far as value goes with a suited connector isn't a raise what is really needed to get those pot odds you so desperately need to chase these things? In fact would not a raise by someone with a suited connector go a long way to getting those pot odds?

In the example provided I think the highest suited connect he gave was 56. The best players in the world will lose money over their lifetime with 56s. throw it away evertime and don't worry about it.Now T9,89,maybe 78 have a more value.(of course in late position with 5 or so caller for a single bet.The raise doesn't get the pot odds its the number of players in the hand gives you the odds, calling two bets with56 or even T9 is suicide) What sucks about 56 and below is that if you make your flush you still might not win and there is little chance of a pair of 5's or 6's being the best hand. The little extra value of 78 89 T9 is that you might hit a pair and win(i.e you don't make your straight or flush but your pair of 9's holds up againts pocket 7's)