21 replies to this topic

[Binbs]

6 players on a 2/4 table.Im BB and am raised 20 dollars by a very aggresive player. I have J 10 and call. flop comes:9 Q K I flopped a str8 and bet 4 dollars. He calls.turn is some blank card that I dont remember.I bet 20 dollars, he raises me 80. I callRiver is Q I check, and he bets 200 dollars.I ended up folding cuz of the flush and Fullhouse possibilities.This player is usualy very aggressive and ive called his high raises before to find out he was bluffing.Thoughts on how this hand was played are appreciated.

[holman3rd]

Binbs said:

6 players on a 2/4 table.Im BB and am raised 20 dollars by a very aggresive player. I have J 10 and call. flop comes:9 Q K I flopped a str8 and bet 4 dollars. He calls.turn is some blank card that I dont remember.I bet 20 dollars, he raises me 80. I callRiver is Q I check, and he bets 200 dollars.I ended up folding cuz of the flush and Fullhouse possibilities.This player is usualy very aggressive and ive called his high raises before to find out he was bluffing.Thoughts on how this hand was played are appreciated.

I assume this is a NL game, even though you said it was a 2/4 game.Preflop call is a little on the loose side, but ok.On the flop you bet only $4 into a $42 pot...not enough. I'd bet 75%-100% of the pot to see where I'm at. His call tells me nothing. Can't really put him on a flush draw, or I'd expect a raise.On the turn a blank falls and you lead again. Pot-sized raise says he had a made hand on the flop, probably the flush.You check the river, which was good.But, I think you should have:1) Made a bigger bet on the flop.2) Checked the turn and folded to a big bet.My read on him is A 10 I don't put him on a flopped set of A or K b/c his preflop raise seemed a bit big heads up, plus he would have raised on the flop to protect his hand.He was trapping on the flop, and then making you pay to draw to a full house.Am I at least close?

[Eskimo]

I don't think you should have checked the river. It gives him a great opportunity to try and steal the pot. I would've probably bet the river and then if he re-raises you, you know you're beat.

[holman3rd]

Eskimo said:

I don't think you should have checked the river. It gives him a great opportunity to try and steal the pot. I would've probably bet the river and then if he re-raises you, you know you're beat.

There always the possibility that my line of reasoning is weak/tight. That's the main reason I stick to limit for cash games.

[Spidurman]

Eskimo said:

I don't think you should have checked the river. It gives him a great opportunity to try and steal the pot. I would've probably bet the river and then if he re-raises you, you know you're beat.

agreed - you can't let him position bet you. Bet the river and fold to a raise.

[Pearl]

hard to guess the guy's hand without actually seeing the previous hands in person. 1. your first bet of $4 means nothing. the flop play was just great. you have to bet out strong and the only hand you are really scared of is the A 10 flush. other hands, you have diamond out with your Jd. the flop bet gives you no information - he is equally likely to have Ad 10d (or suited diamond connectors), Ad Qs, or Ad Kx, or K's or Q's. for an aggressive player, they are as likely to raise the same with 7d 8d - depends on how crazy they are. 2. your weak leads might have given him the wrong impression and might raise you with those hands that are behind you. here again, the mistake on the flop bet makes it less clear on how to proceed. especially if turn card is a blank, hands like Ad QK/x are now looking less favorable vs your made straight with second highest flush draw. 3. if i were the other guy, and i sense weakness in your check, i might bet strong with Ad Qx. besides why would he push strong with Ad 10d on that paired board - the way you betted and called the turn raise represent a pretty strong hand, so you could have the set or top 2 pairs and river will fill you up. curious what other people think but i am more likely to check the river with Ad 10d, but bet with K's Q's KQ or Ad Qx. lots of variations here. curious what others think.

[JFarrell20]

Shouldn't have called to begin with. Geez, 9 times out of 10, the posts on here have mistakes pre-flop. Why would you call his big raise pre-flop with J 10 off???????????????????????????????????????????????????????Stupid idea. I'm sorry. What are you trying to hit? A straight? OK, look what happenes...say he's playing two higher paint cards like KQ. You make a straight and those cards are hitting him as well. Another Q comes off and he very well could have the boat. Don't call this pre-flop!!!Please...

[jogsxyz]

holman3rd said:

Eskimo said:

I don't think you should have checked the river. It gives him a great opportunity to try and steal the pot. I would've probably bet the river and then if he re-raises you, you know you're beat.

There always the possibility that my line of reasoning is weak/tight. That's the main reason I stick to limit for cash games.

holman is right. If you dont want to call $200, dont play no limit cash games. No limit is good for SnGs and MTTs.

[Pearl]

JFarrell20 said:

Shouldn't have called to begin with.  Geez, 9 times out of 10, the posts on here have mistakes pre-flop.  Why would you call his big raise pre-flop with J 10 off???????????????????????????????????????????????????????Stupid idea.  I'm sorry.  What are you trying to hit?  A straight?  OK, look what happenes...say he's playing two higher paint cards like KQ.  You make a straight and those cards are hitting him as well.  Another Q comes off and he very well could have the boat.  Don't call this pre-flop!!!Please...

the gentleman/lady asked nicely. no need to make them feel small.back to the topic -one CAN call with that hand especially if he/she has position (and the raiser is loose aggressive) and outplay the opponent on flop. i see ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with the call. and at a deeper level, if you think the loose aggressive player is raising a certain amount because they dont want a caller (i.e smaller pocker pairs), you CAN actually reraise -- that is, if you are comfortable with your judgment that opponent has smaller pp. example: opponent holds pocket 7's. that means any paint or ace is your out (read daniel's blogs, and its pretty straight forward to follow). as you get better putting someone on a range of hands, you will start to realize that any set of cards that do not match or help the opponent's hand is your out. think about it a little more and you will get it. all of this is assuming of course that the player knows how to get away from trouble post flop.daniel called down a big raise with 6 9 off (and i think out of position as well) in the last tourney, if i remember. trying telling a best NL poker player in the world that he is nuts calling a big raise with 69 off. this style of play is dangerous but at least one will be playing NL poker at an interesting level. think first about what your opponent has, and think about what is going through the opponent's head when you just called down his big raise, pay attention to whethere he was happy that you called or not or he seems worried. after all, you wouldn't call down a big raise unless you are holding the so called 'premium hands', right?key is - just know when to fold post flop - and have fun experimenting.

[JFarrell20]

I didn't personally attack the postor.I said the idea of calling was stupid. And I still think it was.

[Pearl]

JFarrell20 said:

I didn't personally attack the postor.I said the idea of calling was stupid.  And I still think it was.

right. everyone is entitled to their own opinion - and i shall not endeavour to change yours - but i dont want the original poster to get the wrong idea of what an NL game is about, thats all. i am sure players like dan or gus love people who think the idea of calling that hand with 10J was stupid.you know what i really think? i think you are a shark or an expert player who knows exactly what you are doing - but very often kept giving bad advice so that you can pick them off easily on poker stars or internet. very smart guy.

[wrto4556]

Pearl said:

you know what i really think? i think you are a shark or an expert player who knows exactly what you are doing - but very often kept giving bad advice so that you can pick them off easily on poker stars or internet.  very smart guy.

ROFL!

[Wilderness]

Pearl said:

you know what i really think? i think you are a shark or an expert player who knows exactly what you are doing - but very often kept giving bad advice so that you can pick them off easily on poker stars or internet.  very smart guy.

lol to that as wellAnyways, regarding the initial poster, I do think that the two main mistakes were calling the initial bet pre-flop (it doesn't sound like he has position, since he's the one who keeps leading out after the flop) with that hand. Its really not a strong hand and the opponent made a strong bet. I do see Pearl's reasoning as to why you can sometimes make calls with weak hands, but I think that most people on here and in general in poker do not have the skills to do that. If you are trying to work on those skills, great, but you'll probably want to do it on a lower limit than 2/4.The second main mistake was, as most people mentioned, the $4 bet on the flop. That is such a small bet into the pot that it tells you nothing about his hand. If you make a pot-sized bet or maybe a little smaller, and he calls, then you may want to back down on the turn and be ready to fold. After he was check-raised on the turn, I see no problem at all to checking the river and folding to the bet. I think its clear that you are behind at this point, although perhaps the opponent just sensed weakness with your tiny flop bet, which is why he check-raised and bet big on the river (which is why I'd advocate betting bigger on the flop to see where you are).And yes JFarrell, calling someone's play stupid is a personal attack and wasn't necessary by any means.

[JFarrell20]

Pearl said:

JFarrell20 said:

you know what i really think? i think you are a shark or an expert player who knows exactly what you are doing - but very often kept giving bad advice so that you can pick them off easily on poker stars or internet. very smart guy.

lol, as well. Thanks though. I play .5/1 limit holdem, and have only been doing so for about 20 hours for real money. Played play money for about a year prior.Look, I am not giving binbs bad advice. At all. First of all, he didn't say where this person raised from (mid pos., SB, etc). This info would help. From the way he failed to mention this, and how much $ was in the pot pre-flop, as well as the way he poorly played this hand post-flop, I can safely deduct that he is a total newbie. Nothing wrong with that, we were all newbie's once. However, newbie's aren't supposed to call 5XBB pre-flop raises with J 10 off. That's a rule.(I appreciate you saying that he may have been trying to outplay his opponent post-flop, but judging by his betting pattern, I'm assuming he is not capable of that yet.)Not being mean to a FCP newbie. Just stating the obvious.

[Wilderness]

JFarrell20 said:

Look, I am not giving binbs bad advice.  At all.  First of all, he didn't say where this person raised from (mid pos., SB, etc).  This info would help.  From the way he failed to mention this, and how much $ was in the pot pre-flop, as well as the way he poorly played this hand post-flop, I can safely deduct that he is a total newbie.  Nothing wrong with that, we were all newbie's once.  However, newbie's aren't supposed to call 5XBB pre-flop raises with J 10 off.  That's a rule.(I appreciate you saying that he may have been trying to outplay his opponent post-flop, but judging by his betting pattern, I'm assuming he is not capable of that yet.)Not being mean to a FCP newbie.  Just stating the obvious.

Your advice wasn't bad at all, he shouldn't have played the J10. But just because someone made a bad or questionable play there is no need to call it "stupid", but just instead to say why it should have been played differently so that person can learn without being insulted.

[Pearl]

[quote name='"WildernessYour advice wasn't bad at all' date=' he shouldn't have played the J10. But just because someone made a bad or questionable play there is no need to call it "stupid", but just instead to say why it should have been played differently so that person can learn without being insulted.[/quote']ok ok. modification: if the poster is a rookie/newbie, then he should stick with limit, becase otherwise, its a tough advice. play limits, understand position and value of hands and then experiment with NL. otherwise, you can only play 2 or 3 hands in NL - stick with A's K's or Q's. for example, if someone raised you big and you call with AQ, and flop is Q 7 2 and you bet, and he raised you all in. are you going to put the raiser on A's and K's all the time and fold? thats no fun. point - in NL, its not about what you hold. its about [u]the hand opponent holds[/u] and [u]what he thinks you hold[/u]. -- at least in the beginning. and then its about what he holds, what he thinks you hold, what he thinks you think he holds, what you think he thinks you think he holds and so on -- and then all back to 'instinct' at the end of the day.if its a button raise, its pretty standard. if he raises from mid to earlier position, i still call, but be more careful.

[Wilderness]

ok ok. modification: if the poster is a rookie/newbie, then he should stick with limit, becase otherwise, its a tough advice. play limits, understand position and value of hands and then experiment with NL. otherwise, you can only play 2 or 3 hands in NL - stick with A's K's or Q's. for example, if someone raised you big and you call with AQ, and flop is Q 7 2 and you bet, and he raised you all in. are you going to put the raiser on A's and K's all the time and fold? thats no fun. I definitely agree with you here. If someone really is new to the game, limit and play money are the best places to start getting a grasp. Mistakes will obviously happen, and you can and will be punished very heavily for a lot of mistakes in NL. Getting the hang of fundamental starting hands, post-flop play, position, etc can be done less expensively (in terms of $/mistake) in Limit than NL.point - in NL, its not about what you hold. its about the hand opponent holds and what he thinks you hold. -- at least in the beginning. and then its about what he holds, what he thinks you hold, what he thinks you think he holds, what you think he thinks you think he holds and so on -- and then all back to 'instinct' at the end of the day.I also agree partially with this. In the beginning, and in low limits, its really only about what you hold and what you think they hold. Most people playing low limits just won't really think about what you have or why you are betting a certain way. For instance, say I have A-10 and I raise on the button after 1 limper. I get a couple of callers. Flop comes A-J-6. I will obviously bet out, and very often will get people calling with J-? and 6-? all the way, because they don't really think about what I could have. Or if the flop comes 2 spades, then the turn is a3rd spade and all of a sudden I start betting, a lot of low level players won't even think about the flush possibility.My point is that at the very low limits, its really just about what you have, and what you think they have. You have to play ABC poker, and you can't try to bluff (because you'll often get called down with lousy hands that would easily lose to what you are representing but not what you actually hold) and you can't try to make sneaky moves, because the opponents just will not be thinking at those kind of levels. Play only decent starting hands, open up those hands somewhat when you have position, but still you won't be able to do a whole lot of "post-flop play" because most people won't be thinking about anything but the fact that they have two pretty little face cards or that gutshot straight draw that they'll call to the river with horrible pot odds.Obviously once you start playing with people who have knowledge of the game, and who can think/play well, then you get into the whole what he thinks you think he thinks you hold and all that good stuff. That's when the game gets really fun, but you won't find that at any of these low limits.

[JFarrell20]

I wouldn't go so far as to say he should play limit.He can play NL. Just not like this. I started out playing play money NL and dominated. Now I'm working on limit real money. It's a lot different. But again, don't tell him to not play NL. It may not be a good idea with real money but simply sitting at a NL table is not dangerous. Calling pre-flop raises with J 10 off is.And sorry if I used the word stupid, but I think honesty is the best policy. I would be lying to him if I didn't say the call was stupid. He needs to know just how bad it was. No watered-down BS. This isn't kindercare.We're talking REAL MONEY here. No time for feelings. I'm trying to save this guy $$$.

[holman3rd]

JFarrell20 said:

   lol, as well.  Thanks though.  I play .5/1 limit holdem, and have only been doing so for about 20 hours for real money.  Played play money for about a year prior.

As i said earlier, I thought the call was loose, but OK. Daniel would be the first to say to throw out your books. Still, for beginners, following JFarrell's advice is a good idea. You really have to master the basics before loosening up your playing standards. Until you get really good at post-flop play, you just can't be cold-calling these types of hands out of position.When I said that it was OK, I guess I was assuming the player was advanced.Speaking of which, I think it would be helpful to split up these forums--such as "Low Limit", "Mid/High Limit" and "No-Limit". Some of the questions posted here are from very advanced players, and I don't think the advice of low-limit players adds value in those situations.Over at 2-plus-2 they do this, and I occassionally post in the low-limit forum (as I play up to 5/10), and just troll in the mid/high limit sections b/c I feel I have a lot to learn and nothing to add there.By the way, this is just a suggestion to segregate the postings further, not a way to restrict anyone from posting in certain forums.Just a thought. What do you think?